Why do short fun rides start so early?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
PH
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by PH »

mjr wrote: 2 Sep 2021, 10:12am
pwa wrote: 2 Sep 2021, 5:03am Especially on Sundays, if you begin a ride quite early you can substantially reduce your exposure to traffic. The later you leave it, the busier the roads will be. Perhaps that motivates some organisers to pick early start times.
There may be less traffic but it is disproportionately dangerous, as I outlined in viewtopic.php?p=1634651#p1634651

Organisers who care about rider safety, especially of lone riders heading to the start, should start later.
The chart you present doesn't support your conclusion. Without knowing the volume, the proportion is meaningless in the context of this discussion.
mattheus
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by mattheus »

PH wrote: 2 Sep 2021, 4:41pm
mjr wrote: 2 Sep 2021, 10:12am
pwa wrote: 2 Sep 2021, 5:03am Especially on Sundays, if you begin a ride quite early you can substantially reduce your exposure to traffic. The later you leave it, the busier the roads will be. Perhaps that motivates some organisers to pick early start times.
There may be less traffic but it is disproportionately dangerous, as I outlined in viewtopic.php?p=1634651#p1634651

Organisers who care about rider safety, especially of lone riders heading to the start, should start later.
The chart you present doesn't support your conclusion. Without knowing the volume, the proportion is meaningless in the context of this discussion.
It's also of little relevance to cyclists; that data shows how dangerous life is for a DRIVER travelling at those times.

So for both reasons, it does not show how risk to a cyclist varies over time.

Meanwhile, a common reason for avoiding high traffic levels is just making the rides more pleasant (regardless of what any data says); any rider can make their own judgement of that quite accurately, as it by definition a personal - subjective - thing!
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mjr
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by mjr »

PH wrote: 2 Sep 2021, 4:41pm The chart you present doesn't support your conclusion.
Which I myself pointed out in the post... but I have seen the data and it is broadly similar to that chart. I expect it's published but I've not enough time to dig it out of archives or maybe even request a copy from the government statistician who presented it at the meeting I attended.
mattheus wrote: 2 Sep 2021, 4:53pmIt's also of little relevance to cyclists; that data shows how dangerous life is for a DRIVER travelling at those times.
No, it's how dangerous the average road user at that time is to anyone. The underlying dataset, RRCGB, does included deaths and injuries of non-motorists (and ones caused by non-motorists but they are rare).
Meanwhile, a common reason for avoiding high traffic levels is just making the rides more pleasant (regardless of what any data says); any rider can make their own judgement of that quite accurately, as it by definition a personal - subjective - thing!
That's fine but not what I thought was meant by "reduce your exposure to traffic", which seemed like a safety argument.
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by pwa »

I prefer roads with low traffic levels, and I would do so even if someone convinced me that I was exposing myself to extra risk by being on them. Roads differ in the driving culture that dominates, but in my own area I think I know the small number of roads where dangerously dodgy driving is common, and I avoid them. I thread together routes that keep me mostly on roads I am comfortable with, including at 7am. I have commuted on our local rural B road at 7am thousands of times and felt reasonably safe. My one seriously worrying moment on that road was much later in the day and caused by a driver travelling at maybe 30mph who overtook me and pulled in before his trailer (carrying a boat) had passed me. So if someone held an organised ride in my area and it started at 8am on a Sunday morning, I'd see that as just about perfect. Two hours of low level traffic before other folk become mobile at 10ish or after. I have done many Audax rides and the first couple of hours can be magic.
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

mjr wrote: 31 Aug 2021, 3:19pm
- the roads are quieter/safer at 0800 weekend than for the whole of the rest of the day.
I'm not digging in my archives to get the exact figures for cyclist but I am pretty sure that is incorrect, especially when it coincides with sunrise in autumn and precedes thaw in winter. The safest times of the weekend tend to be lunchtime on Saturday (when sports fans finish driving to near the grounds, probably lunching and drinking before the game if it's a traditional 3pm football match, but before they leave tipsy, ecstatic or unhappy) and early evening on Sunday (retail parks have long closed, the big Sunday lunchers are snoozing in front of unchallenging TV and others are packing up for Monday morning). This is from the DfT "Facts on Road Fatalities" of June 2015, for example:
Screenshot_2021-08-31 Facts on road fatalities - road-fatalities-2013-data pdf.png
But that doesn't represent the amount of danger from traffic to cyclists; it's adjusted for mileage, so it represents danger to and from each individual user-mile. As there are fewer people on the roads at those red times, the total danger to which a cyclist is exposed might be less. And of course it varies by road, area, and probably time of year as well.

Ed: I see this point has already been addressed.
Last edited by Bmblbzzz on 3 Sep 2021, 9:53am, edited 1 time in total.
PH
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by PH »

mjr wrote: 2 Sep 2021, 6:42pm
PH wrote: 2 Sep 2021, 4:41pm The chart you present doesn't support your conclusion.
Which I myself pointed out in the post...
Leaving aside that you don't.
Let me re-phrase that. You have offered no evidence that supports your conclusion.
Which surprises me, as if such evidence existed it would be the sort of thing likely to sway ride organisers.
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by mattheus »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 3 Sep 2021, 9:01am <snip>But that doesn't represent the amount of danger from traffic to cyclists; it's adjusted for mileage, so it represents danger to and from each individual user-mile. As there are fewer people on the roads at those red times, the total danger to which a cyclist is exposed might be less.
<snip>
Ed: I see this point has already been addressed.
I think you put it better than *I* did. :thumbsup:
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gazza_d
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by gazza_d »

ontodva wrote: 30 Aug 2021, 11:33pm It's a Saturday or Sunday morning and you are looking forward to a 30-40km easy ride but why is the organiser making everyone get to the starting point at 9.15? That is a typical start time for a meeting point that could take people an hour to get to by train after leaving home at 8.15. Why so early? The ride will finish by 2.30. Everyone needs to be home by 3.30? Who said?
Before the pandemic I used to lead short rides of maybe 20k on a Saturday morning starting at 10:00.
Why?
So I could have the Saturday afternoon for other commitments.
Ride leaders etc are usually volunteers and organise rides around their commitments and what works for the majority. Not very cool to critisise someone giving up their time and energy to organise and lead a ride.
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mjr
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by mjr »

gazza_d wrote: 3 Sep 2021, 5:28pm Ride leaders etc are usually volunteers and organise rides around their commitments and what works for the majority. Not very cool to critisise someone giving up their time and energy to organise and lead a ride.
1. I think it's mostly around organiser commitments, then their preference, and only rarely does anyone try to find out what works for the majority. I don't say that's wrong, just that it's that order.

2. the opening post asked why, rather than criticised. (A few posts later, one suggested reason was called "fussy", which might possibly be seen as criticism, but that's very tame compared to what some on here post!)
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simonhill
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by simonhill »

Sitting outside pub this early eve and a woman said she was meeting there tomorrow for a 9am ride.

I asked her why so early. She replied that start then, finish by 12 and rest of day still available/usable.

There you go research on the ground.
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by Red Kite »

mjr wrote: 3 Sep 2021, 6:57pm
1. I think it's mostly around organiser commitments, then their preference, and only rarely does anyone try to find out what works for the majority. I don't say that's wrong, just that it's that order.
I think that's right, and it's right that it's right - as volunteers, they would like to pick a time when they can do it. Also, if it's a regular commitment, they don't want to lose a whole day every time. The riders choose whether they want to go that week - the organiser has to do it every time.

I don't organise rides, but I volunteer in the community shop. I'm not really an early bird but I do 06.45-09.30 every Saturday. I choose that shift because a shift that stopped me having other options every Saturday, such as visiting the grandchildren 60 miles away, just wouldn't be one I would commit to.

2. the opening post asked why, rather than criticised. (A few posts later, one suggested reason was called "fussy", which might possibly be seen as criticism, but that's very tame compared to what some on here post!)
Yes I noted that, fair question from the OP. Although it's surprising how many [other] folk will actually complain about something offered voluntarily when they volunteer for nothing themselves. Again the village shop provides an example - I asked a neighbour why she didn't support it. She said "it's never open. If they want people to use it they should open at least 7 'til 7." It takes 40 volunteers to run and open this shop 8am-2pm daily, and she thinks someone should be there until 7pm every day for no pay so she can go when she feels like it!
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horizon
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by horizon »

simonhill wrote: 3 Sep 2021, 7:57pm Sitting outside pub this early eve and a woman said she was meeting there tomorrow for a 9am ride.

I asked her why so early. She replied that start then, finish by 12 and rest of day still available/usable.
Yes, for a cycle ride presumably.
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by awavey »

Id always assumed its because rides were organised by mainly early risers who were always on a pass from family duty so had to get the ride over and done with as soon as possible to cause least strife at home.

being a night owl myself, the thought of getting up for early morning ride, and 9am is very early for me, even on holiday I struggle to make breakfast time, so its something Id rarely commit to, Im lucky if any of my rides start before midday usually,

the downside is theres little point to then being a cycling club member as nearly all their social rides are set too early for me to ever be able to join
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by horizon »

What I find strange is that I thought Sunday was a good day for a cycle ride. In fact, it seems that for most people, it isn't: children, the lawn, Sunday roast, relatives, washing the car have to be done. So the cycling gets slipped into the morning slot leaving the rest of the day for all those other things, even presumably snoozing in the amchair. I totally respect the ride leader's need to get on with his/her life and his/her right to choose the time; but surely even he/she might want to cycle in the afternoon? Or has he/she reserved that time for his/her own quiet and solitary ride or for a pleasant jaunt with his/her partner? :mrgreen:
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Re: Why do short fun rides start so early?

Post by pwa »

awavey wrote: 3 Sep 2021, 9:24pm Id always assumed its because rides were organised by mainly early risers who were always on a pass from family duty so had to get the ride over and done with as soon as possible to cause least strife at home.

being a night owl myself, the thought of getting up for early morning ride, and 9am is very early for me, even on holiday I struggle to make breakfast time, so its something Id rarely commit to, Im lucky if any of my rides start before midday usually,

the downside is theres little point to then being a cycling club member as nearly all their social rides are set too early for me to ever be able to join
This shows how we all differ. For me, a ride starting at midday would be starting when the day is half done and my energy levels are starting to wane. You are a bit like my daughter, who seems to live in a different time zone. Today is a day off work for me so I had a lie-in and got up at 6am.
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