Route 74 has gone

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Paulatic
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Route 74 has gone

Post by Paulatic »

Taped out 74
Taped out 74
Noticed this morning all of the route number signs have been taped over in my Lockerbie-Moffat section.
Does anyone know what’s going on?
Is this happening the entire route?
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LollyKat
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by LollyKat »

Sustrans are reclassifying some of their routes because they are not up to their newest standards. The blue cycle signs will stay but the numbers are being removed. More details on the Sustrans website - sorry I can’t post a link on my phone.
Psamathe
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Psamathe »

https://www.sustrans.org.uk/about-us/pa ... work-faqs/ might be the link people were thinking of?

Ian
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Paulatic
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Paulatic »

Thanks, https://explore.osmaps.com/en?lat=55.21 ... oom=9.6481
I see it’s now classed as an 'on road route not on the NCN'

Won’t removing the numbers make navigation a little harder if there are two routes that split and neither is identified with a number.

Does anyone know what and how soon will there be changes to the OSM mapping? I’ve always found it useful in MapOut to see the cycling network overlay.
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Pete Owens
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Pete Owens »

Probably because it doesn't meet sustrans standards of absurdity.
Routes that are ridable on a normal bicycle are being systematically purged form the network - just leaving the muddy obstacle courses.
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mjr
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by mjr »

Paulatic wrote: 11 Oct 2021, 10:20pm Won’t removing the numbers make navigation a little harder if there are two routes that split and neither is identified with a number.

Does anyone know what and how soon will there be changes to the OSM mapping? I’ve always found it useful in MapOut to see the cycling network overlay.
This is the next step of vandalism by Sustrans, wasting scarce cycling resources and their signage powers on obliterating route signs, as predicted in viewtopic.php?f=6&t=139403

Yes, it makes navigation more difficult.

The OSM mapping should change from a numbered red line to an unnumbered purple (regional route) or blue (local route) line once a map editing volunteer notices. How soon is anyone's guess: Sustrans have refused to help update OSM whenever I've asked, so it'll be annoying if their first contribution is deleting things!
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Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

Some of the downgraded routes are being re-signposted with a (non-NCN) route name or logo. Rather exasperatingly, in England, prior DfT approval is needed for route logos - I don't know what the situation is in Scotland.

I can guess why this section has been lopped from the NCN - high motor traffic speeds and volumes, I'd bet. It's clearly a useful touring route though, so continued signage would be useful, even if just destinations rather than a route identity as such. Maybe the local authority will take that on.
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mjr
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by mjr »

Richard Fairhurst wrote: 12 Oct 2021, 12:41am Some of the downgraded routes are being re-signposted with a (non-NCN) route name or logo. Rather exasperatingly, in England, prior DfT approval is needed for route logos
I am not sure that is still true. TSRGD2016 allows use of "a symbol of any appropriate design and colour with a height not exceeding that of the pedal cycle symbol" (schedule 12 part 3 sign table) on many signs, although coloured route numbers/letters (and not just NCN red and blue) are authorised on more sign types.
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Psamathe
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote: 12 Oct 2021, 12:22am ....
The OSM mapping should change from a numbered red line to an unnumbered purple (regional route) or blue (local route) line once a map editing volunteer notices. How soon is anyone's guess: Sustrans have refused to help update OSM whenever I've asked, so it'll be annoying if their first contribution is deleting things!
Particularly disappointing if they wont cooperate with OSM. Made even harder that they wont/haven't publish a list of "downgraded" routes so nobody can run through and get all the work done. Does make you wonder why they wont help.

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Jdsk
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 12 Oct 2021, 11:54amParticularly disappointing if they wont cooperate with OSM. Made even harder that they wont/haven't publish a list of "downgraded" routes so nobody can run through and get all the work done. Does make you wonder why they wont help.
Is this the case?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sustrans_Connect2
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes

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mjr
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by mjr »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Oct 2021, 12:01pm
Psamathe wrote: 12 Oct 2021, 11:54amParticularly disappointing if they wont cooperate with OSM. Made even harder that they wont/haven't publish a list of "downgraded" routes so nobody can run through and get all the work done. Does make you wonder why they wont help.
Is this the case?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sustrans_Connect2
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_routes
Yes, it's the case. Sustrans base their maps on Ordnance Survey, which of course shows legal status more reliably than most OSM renders but does not show more practical matters like surface, status or route name. I do not know of any recent editing of OSM by Sustrans.

Those wiki pages are used by OSM volunteers trying to track Sustrans's changes after the fact. I don't understand the point you are trying to make by linking them.

After the "Paths for Everyone" cull, Sustrans did release data dumps of the surviving routes, but I have not even attempted to compare them to OSM because they are based on Ordnance Survey mapping so I think that would be legally unusable.

Sustrans did not release data on the deleted routes, neither their location nor the specific reasons supporting each deletion. Playing "spot the difference" with their OS overlay to delete things is both legally questionable and procedurally not how OSM works (OSM is meant to reflect reality of signs and building more than theory: pre-mapping things under construction is widespread but slightly controversail AIUI), so we're really waiting to see what changes on the ground.

Some volunteers near me have said that they are not going to spend their limited time defacing route signs and I doubt Sustrans's limited staff will be sent out to do it. It's not yet clear to me whether anyone (county councils?) will replace NCN signs that get lost or damaged over time with their logo'd/named equivalents. It's also not clear to me whether county councils could simply keep putting up NCN red-numbered signs like-for-like despite Sustrans claiming a section has no red number any more.
Psamathe wrote: 12 Oct 2021, 11:54am Particularly disappointing if they wont cooperate with OSM. Made even harder that they wont/haven't publish a list of "downgraded" routes so nobody can run through and get all the work done. Does make you wonder why they wont help.
A cynic suggested to me that it may be so county councils have to buy route audit reports from Sustrans, which will probably be cheaper than guessing what work should be done and building all that.
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Psamathe
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote: 12 Oct 2021, 12:39pm ... I do not know of any recent editing of OSM by Sustrans. ...
They are not listed as a source in the OSM Wiki listing datasets https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Con ... ed_Kingdom and it's a fairly detailed list.

Ian
Pete Owens
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Pete Owens »

It seems particularly perverse for Sustrans to be expunging this particular route.

The route follows the former course of the A74 - which has been replaced for motor traffic by a motorway. This makes for an extremely high quality smooth wide route almost entirely free of motor traffic. Indeed (for those who like such things) for some sections where both carriageways of the old road remain. one of them has been converted to a cycleway to segregate cyclists from the non existent motor traffic..
Though with the usual absurdities at the few junctions: https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6017316 ... 384!8i8192
Signage is particularly important for this route, as the road signing has been made deliberately obtuse to deter motors - it has been renumbered to a set of obscure 4 digit B roads that are often not signed at all - eg this left turn:
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.5739867 ... 384!8i8192
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Paulatic
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by Paulatic »

@ Pete Owens The section in your first link will still be signed 74 as it’s away from traffic.
I presume the 74 sign in your second link has now been taped over.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Route 74 has gone

Post by thirdcrank »

IMO, all it really shows is the folly of outsourcing the NCN in the first place. However you look at, a quarter of a century on from the NCS, the NCN is a disjointed mess.
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