i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

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Pete Owens
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by Pete Owens »

prestavalve wrote: 3 Nov 2021, 7:02pm
Pete Owens wrote: 2 Nov 2021, 5:30pm What a mind-numbingly daft idea.
Postboxer wrote: 3 Nov 2021, 9:39am I think Prestavalve meant ...
ChrisP100 wrote: 3 Nov 2021, 3:18pm That's the way I read it too.
I was making fun of a certain cycling organisation who would very likely make it a policy position to ride the opposite way down roads if enough people who don't ride told them it would make them feel safe.
Sorry, I missed the irony.
The trouble is that it is not just that certain cycling organisation, but most highway authorities and even some cycle campaigners.
thirdcrank
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by thirdcrank »

Re asking non-riders why they don't ride, we did have a version of that in a discussion here and in the media more widely about why fewer women cycle than men and IIRC answers thrown up then included things like helmets spoiling barnets.
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mjr
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by mjr »

Pete Owens wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 11:27am
prestavalve wrote: 3 Nov 2021, 7:02pm I was making fun of a certain cycling organisation who would very likely make it a policy position to ride the opposite way down roads if enough people who don't ride told them it would make them feel safe.
Sorry, I missed the irony.
The trouble is that it is not just that certain cycling organisation, but most highway authorities and even some cycle campaigners.
And, as usual, I say that anyone who truly believes that Cycling UK or even Sustrans would do that has completely lost their grip on reality!

I also seriously doubt most highway authorities care enough about cycling to adopt such a policy even if they thought it would encourage more to cycle... and that would require more thought than many seem to put into cycling, which currently seems to exist somewhere between negligence and budget-raiding in most authorities.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mjr
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 11:38am Re asking non-riders why they don't ride, we did have a version of that in a discussion here and in the media more widely about why fewer women cycle than men and IIRC answers thrown up then included things like helmets spoiling barnets.
I've mentioned before my local borough's survey of why non-riders don't ride, which found the top reasons were:
1. no interest (35%);
2. prefer to walk short distances (20%);
3= no bicycle (14%);
3= roads too busy;
5. weather offputting (12%);
6. don't know where cycle routes or parking are (8%);
7. fear of injury (3%).

Most-requested improvements: lighting (43%), routes/signs (22%), parking and road maintenance (both 12%).

I hope maybe more people are interested since the various climate and health crises have had more coverage, but I doubt the relative importance of the other aspects has changed much in the 15 years since that survey. Progress on new routes, signage, lighting, parking and information has been glacial. Road maintenance has been crap, with motorists still getting the lion's share.

In a national survey 3 years later, far more said they fear injury (39%) and there were slightly more requests for better routes (24%) and parking (14%) than we saw locally, with lighting not figuring highly. I hope the national picture has changed a bit with more cities having had less scary routes built, but I don't remember the latest non-rider surveys.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mattheus
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by mattheus »

mjr wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 12:13pm
I've mentioned before my local borough's survey of why non-riders don't ride, which found the top reasons were:
1. no interest (35%);
<snip>
7. fear of injury (3%).


In a national survey 3 years later, far more said they fear injury (39%) and
...
There is something very odd going on for such an enormous jump to take place. Acciden/death figures certainly don't support this.

I have to say I have never had much faith in these surveys - party due to the usual problems with surveys, but more with the typical level of honesty from my fellow man. [If I was too lazy to do something, would I admit it, or find a better excuse ... ]
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mjr
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by mjr »

mattheus wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 1:25pm
mjr wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 12:13pm
I've mentioned before my local borough's survey of why non-riders don't ride, which found the top reasons were:
1. no interest (35%);
<snip>
7. fear of injury (3%).


In a national survey 3 years later, far more said they fear injury (39%) and
...
There is something very odd going on for such an enormous jump to take place. Acciden/death figures certainly don't support this.
Why? The 2007 survey was a local one in a town with many modal filters and cycleways, whereas the 2010 survey was national. While we can disagree about the reality, I hope we can agree that many people feel safer cycling on unravelled and protected routes.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mattheus
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by mattheus »

Ah OK - you confused me by changing two major variables between the two surveys!
Doesn't matter - I THINK I see what your actual point was, carry on ...
ChrisP100
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by ChrisP100 »

Jamesh wrote: 3 Nov 2021, 10:06pm Narrow Devon roads are the worst roads to ride on imho.

The drivers drive like Colin McRae rip.

The lanes are narrow and hedges high.

The A road to the north and south are very busy.

Cheers James
Have you been to Lincolnshire? :)
prestavalve
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by prestavalve »

mjr wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 12:05pm And, as usual, I say that anyone who truly believes that Cycling UK or even Sustrans would do that has completely lost their grip on reality!
It was obviously hyperbole, but yet, in the posts immediately following this...

The one thing I want to see, and the one thing that is certainly going to make me safer, is more bikes on roads. Not on cycle paths, roads.

If you actually want people outside of cities to replace cars with bikes in the short, or even medium term, then it would be good if Cycling UK actively promoted road riding, rather than accepting the premise that bikes don't belong on the roads and that weneedmorecyclepathsbecausepeoplewillstartridingwhenwegetmorecyclepathsandthenwearenetherlands... ugh
mattheus
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by mattheus »

prestavalve wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 2:28pm
mjr wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 12:05pm And, as usual, I say that anyone who truly believes that Cycling UK or even Sustrans would do that has completely lost their grip on reality!
It was obviously hyperbole, but yet, in the posts immediately following this...

The one thing I want to see, and the one thing that is certainly going to make me safer, is more bikes on roads. Not on cycle paths, roads.

If you actually want people outside of cities to replace cars with bikes in the short, or even medium term, then it would be good if Cycling UK actively promoted road riding,
rather than accepting the premise that bikes don't belong on the roads and that weneedmorecyclepathsbecausepeoplewillstartridingwhenwegetmorecyclepathsandthenwearenetherlands... ugh
To be fair, for many many years CTC did promote Safety in Numbers!

(and in their current literature, I would estimate the vast majority of images are of road-riding, not bike lanes. The local projects - such as supporting disabled, or minority groups etc - are usually happy to use roads much of the time. etc etc ... )
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mjr
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by mjr »

mattheus wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 3:36pm
prestavalve wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 2:28pm
mjr wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 12:05pm And, as usual, I say that anyone who truly believes that Cycling UK or even Sustrans would do that has completely lost their grip on reality!
It was obviously hyperbole, but yet, in the posts immediately following this...

The one thing I want to see, and the one thing that is certainly going to make me safer, is more bikes on roads. Not on cycle paths, roads.

If you actually want people outside of cities to replace cars with bikes in the short, or even medium term, then it would be good if Cycling UK actively promoted road riding,
rather than accepting the premise that bikes don't belong on the roads and that weneedmorecyclepathsbecausepeoplewillstartridingwhenwegetmorecyclepathsandthenwearenetherlands... ugh
To be fair, for many many years CTC did promote Safety in Numbers!

(and in their current literature, I would estimate the vast majority of images are of road-riding, not bike lanes. The local projects - such as supporting disabled, or minority groups etc - are usually happy to use roads much of the time. etc etc ... )
Yes, I'd say that Cycling UK still promotes road riding, but I think it now accepts that sometimes a protected bike lane is worth having and enables more people to ride... and once they're riding, most of those people won't mind moving to and from tame roads as needed. It's not about "accepting the premise that bikes don't belong on the roads" at all and I'm sure Cycling UK and the Cyclists Defence Fund will continue to defend the right to ride on the roads to the bottom of their pockets.

CTC wasted 70+ years telling people that they should ride on the road, no matter how awful the road. In many cases, they might as well have been trying to convince people that black is white, day is night and walking on nails is a good thing. We will never get to mass cycling by exhortation.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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prestavalve
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by prestavalve »

mattheus wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 3:36pm (and in their current literature, I would estimate the vast majority of images are of road-riding, not bike lanes. The local projects - such as supporting disabled, or minority groups etc - are usually happy to use roads much of the time. etc etc ... )
Well, lets say I politely disagree with that impression and my membership ends in two days and that's when I'll stop harping on this same point in three or four threads at the same time.

Did anyone else get their new membership card six weeks in advance of the expiry of their old one with a "thanks for renewing" letter? I sent mine back, but that's probably the first time a cycling organisation has given me a new membership anything in advance of a payment agreement...are lots of people leaving?
mattheus
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by mattheus »

prestavalve wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 6:15pm
mattheus wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 3:36pm (and in their current literature, I would estimate the vast majority of images are of road-riding, not bike lanes. The local projects - such as supporting disabled, or minority groups etc - are usually happy to use roads much of the time. etc etc ... )
Well, lets say I politely disagree with that impression and my membership ends in two days and that's when I'll stop harping on this same point in three or four threads at the same time.

Did anyone else get their new membership card six weeks in advance of the expiry of their old one with a "thanks for renewing" letter? I sent mine back, but that's probably the first time a cycling organisation has given me a new membership anything in advance of a payment agreement...are lots of people leaving?
So if I ignore this pointless off-topic whinge about renewals for two days, you promise to stop harping on about it??

:)
mattheus
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by mattheus »

mjr wrote: 4 Nov 2021, 6:05pm ...
CTC wasted 70+ years telling people that they should ride on the road, no matter how awful the road. In many cases, they might as well have been trying to convince people that black is white, day is night and walking on nails is a good thing. We will never get to mass cycling by exhortation.
I'm pretty sure that "70+ years ago" plenty of British people were happy to ride on our roads. So perhaps there is hyperbole on both sides ...

Let's agree that a mixed approach is probably best. Then we can argue endlessly about the details for a few decades yet to come!
prestavalve
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Re: i'm no longer comfortable on the roads

Post by prestavalve »

mattheus wrote: 5 Nov 2021, 10:10am So if I ignore this pointless off-topic whinge about renewals for two days, you promise to stop harping on about it??
Well, you just did a pretty poor job of ignoring it - but I'll stop harping on about anything after today.
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