Ran a Red Light > I'll be hearing from the courts!

[EdinburghFixed]

In Scotland, corroboration is needed for everything as far as I'm aware.

Does this mean if you get busted by a lone policeman that he would be relying on the rider corroborating him (perhaps inadvertently?)

[irc]

In Scotland, corroboration is needed for everything as far as I'm aware.

Does this mean if you get busted by a lone policeman that he would be relying on the rider corroborating him (perhaps inadvertently?)

The short answer is no. While corroboration is usually required in Scotland there are statutory exceptions. Otherwise how could traffic wardens operate alone. While most people pay parking tickets or dispute them there is the option of opting for a court prosecution instead. In that case the warden's evidence would not be corroborated.

If you want the long answer then read section 21 of the Road traffic Offenders Act 1988 which sets out which parts of road traffic law can be prosecuted in Scotland with one witness. A red light offence - sect 36 RTA 1988 is included.

www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988/ukpga_198 ... -pb2-l1g21

[EdinburghFixed]

Thanks. It did seem a bit odd!

[thirdcrank]

In the RTA it would have been nice to have been kept informed, you just hope that should the boot be on the other foot someone would come forward as a witness should you need one.

The keeping informed thing is easier said than done, bearing in mind the huge number of files to-ing and fro-ing in the system. In general, even the officer dealing with case doesn't find out what happened. I suppose IT should provide the answer but there are 43 Home Office police forces, the CPS and any number of courts with incompatible systems.

A probably all too typical example I was involved with happened around 1980, when a system to keep the families of people killed in road accidents informed of the progress of any case had been fairly recently introduced. (Even they were only finding out from news reports.)

Although I was never in any prosecution department, I used to do quite a lot of it part-time because of staff shortages. This day I worked an early turn (6x2) and I took an afternoon court. No time to read up any files but no big deal - just reading out statements of facts in guilty pleas by letter or proving cases in the absence of the defendant. I got to court (in what is now the 'Felon and Firkin' Pub at the back of Leeds Town Hall - a dingy courtroom if ever there was one) in good time and the only person in there was a lady. In reply to my offfer of help she said 'I am the mother of the deceased.' The words remain etched on my soul. Somewhere in the three carrier bags of speeders and car tax dodgers there was a fatal accident file. I put a note on the justices' clerk's desk, found the file and mugged it up. A 'think once think twice, think bike' case where the motorcyclist had been killed but the prosecution was only for due care and failing to give way.

When we got going there was as usual, no other member of the public present. The chairman apologised to the lady and explained that 'her' case would not be heard till the defence solicitor came - he would have been appearing in other courts that afternoon as well.

I droned on presenting statements of facts, the only difference from one to another being 50 mph in a 30 limit on York Road or 49 in a 30 somewhere else.

Eventually, my learned friend arrived and we got going. At least I had a decent summary prepared, rather than cobbling something together on the hoof, which would otherwise have ended with 'the injuries were ...er... fatal.'

It dawned on me what was coming next so as I sat down I told the defence solicitor who the lady was. He mumbled 'You're joking?' and then instead of what would inevitably have been a slagging-off of the motor cyclist we got a blurted, almost incoherent torrent of apology on behalf of his absent client.

Before going on to the next case, the chairman made a little speech explaining that the court could only take account of the actual offence charged and expressing the court's condolences etc.

[cranky1]

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/operational-policing/2008_PACE_Code_C_(final).pdf

I hope the link takes you to the PACE Codes of Practice Code C which deals with the treatment of people in custody.

Thats Ok then, so it's still alright to beat a confession out of a nare-do-well as long as its done outside the police station.

It's obviously alright also for a bored police officer to use his position of authority to get a poor unsuspecting member of the public to say whatever he wants him to say(of cause it may be a femail officer as well but you get the drift) and sign anything thats put before them. As long as it's all done outside of the police station where the suspect has no rights.

And you dont want to go ruining a nice easy uncontested and confessed conviction with little things like rights do you. It's not like Rumpole needs to know as he would only complicate matters.

As for the single police statement. If this did go to court and half the evidence turned out to be un-usable because the police officer forgot such things as the rights of the suspect and the questioning was a bit dubuious would the solem word of the same prosecuting officer still be sufficent then?

[cranky1]

Thirdcrank

I have just re read my last post and realise that it's tone may cause offence. I can assure you that I have the utmost respect for the police and that no offence was intended.

It does seem however that in this case the police officer was a tad over zealous and I believe that if we have rights in this type of situation we should be told what they are.

If PACE only applies inside a police station then that is where the statement should have been taken.

[thirdcrank]

cranky1

I didn't have a personal hand in the writing of either the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, 1984 or the Codes of Practice (which have, in any event been amended several times since they were first published.)

I'm not aware that under-occupied police lurking about the streets in the hope of catching a cyclist who can then be framed for alleged RLJing and can have a confession beaten out of him at the roadside to secure an easy conviction has been identified as much of a problem by the people who do write these things, but as dyed-in-the-wool drivers, I suppose the legislators are likely to be hostile to cyclists anyway.

It's a harsh world - be thankful nobody is going to be in a position to accuse you falsely of being a red light jumper.

[aesmith]

However, stopping at every pointless red light on my push bike on the way to work at 5:30am when there are no cars on the road was adding ten minutes each way.

Why not get off the bike, walk round, then re-mount after the junction? That'll take less than 10 minutes.

[kwackers]

I noticed a couple of junctions not far from my house have recently been modified with a short cycle path just in front of the lights that runs round the corner (next to the pavement) then rejoins the road.

Obviously only useful for left hand turns, but I've found it to be well handy. If the lights are on green you just go round as normal, red onto the path and back onto the road (giving way obviously).

Obviously won't appease anyone who thinks we should queue like everyone else...

[Coffee]

Around our way traffic lights change pretty quickly for you at odd times in the morning if you are the only one about, if you cycle over the pressure strip in the road. Might have to slow down to 8 mph but usually don't have to put my foot down....on the floor that is.

[cranky1]

It's a harsh world - be thankful nobody is going to be in a position to accuse you falsely of being a red light jumper.

I can just see mrs cranky chained to the prison gates maybe with a couple of junior cranckies (it would depend on the weather) Free the hartlepool one!

Perhaps sean connery could play me in the film

[thirdcrank]

[sonic777]

SHOOT ME DOWN LADS!!!

But I'll always go through a cheeky red light if there's no police cars about.

Whats wrong with it??

As long as your a competant cyclist and you know the risks...blah blah blah

A little bit of friendly advice mate.

ALWAYS have a name and address memorised to give to the police when you are stopped (for anything) you can't rely on a decent pig to let you off with something minor anymore, there's too few of them around now.

I asked my solicitor mate, he said you definately can't get points for bad cycling.

My advice would be to contest it in court, say that the lights were on AMBER as you went through them, chances are they won't even turn up so you'll win by default!!

[Simon L6]

(sighs deeply)

[Mick F]

(yawns)