Sinking to "their" level...

[EdinburghFixed]

....I gave a squirt of the brakes, as I would if someone was tailgating, and offered a sort of generalised wave of displeasure (not a rude sign!).....

Please don't do this, particularly to tailgaters. You could cause them to swerve and hit an innocent road user.

So are my girlfriend and I not innocent, just because we happen to be the targets? Protecting 'true' innocents is small consolation if we go under someone's wheels because they didn't give us enough room...

Horrible though it sounds, given the choice between being run down and someone else being run down, I know what I'd prefer!

[EdinburghFixed]

I know all this is easier said than done, because it involves a certain amount of humility in the face of a driver's perceived superiority. I find it's really usually better to wield to aggression and take control, rather than expend energy resisting it, and lose control entirely. The result is, the driver thinks he won but you actually know that it is you that controlled the whole situation and everyone comes out feeling better, rather than wound up, as long as you are big/sensible/mature enough to see it that way.

Thanks for the in-depth reply!

It sounds like I need to develop a bit of a thicker skin! The poll data is pretty conclusive.

When I'm on my own, I often find myself in a converse situation - having let them past, the driver gets bogged down in traffic and I need to decide whether to sit in the queue or pass them back. Then the temptation to tailgate them is very strong

[GeoffL]

So are my girlfriend and I not innocent, just because we happen to be the targets? Protecting 'true' innocents is small consolation if we go under someone's wheels because they didn't give us enough room...

Horrible though it sounds, given the choice between being run down and someone else being run down, I know what I'd prefer!

I'd prefer the third option - where nobody gets run down. Cycling or driving, there are three ways of safely dealing with tailgaters - but not all are usually available at any one time and circumstances at the time often dictate which is best. These are:

1. Overtake the motor vehicle in front so that the tailgater becomes their problem. This works well in slow moving traffic with which you can easily keep up. However, this wasn't available in your case.
   
2. Ensure that you have a sufficiently large gap in front that you don't need to brake suddenly, slowing down slightly to develop that gap if needed. While doing this it's a good idea to increase your scanning range so that you can anticipate and deal with any hazards ahead without needing sudden changes of speed or direction. With this strategy the tailgater remains your problem but you have given yourself enough space and time for both of you. The tailgater might want to take advantage of that space, so defend against unsafe overtakes and be prepared to let the tailgater go if push comes to shove. On the bright side, tailgaters who overtake become someone else's problem so you win even if they do overtake.
   
3. Persuade the tailgater to overtake you. The tailgater then becomes the next vehicle up the road's problem. However, this isn't so good in stop-start traffic where the chances are you'd soon filter past the tailgater and in such conditions the first strategy is much more attractive!

HTH,

Geoff

[meic]

I think that if it was an isolated incident, I would pursue it to its conclusion. Confronting the driver calling the Police accusing him of dangerous driving.
Certainly in Germany he would be guilty of an offence and that is what you would expect in a civilised country. Also the Police would take action over it.
However in the UK you can not solve the country's problems on your own.
Unfortunately cyclists in the UK are subject to such behaviour routinely and there is not enough time in the day to address it. Also no support from the Police.
When I was a motorcycle courier I learnt after a few months not to waste a second with bad motorists( but I was always able to accelerate away). It is a totally futile exercise, if you cure 1 bad motorist you have another 20,000,000 left to work on!
On the other hand I am not a Christian and if a driver behind is giving me grief because they are in a hurry and I see a way to continue their suffering (merely by remaining on the road as a road user who thinks they have a right to use the road ) I will do so. It would be very bad practice to reward bullying.
As an example I would be very careful to stop for amber lights or pedestrians near to Zebras and if the car behind decides to overtake me illegally at this point as they normally do I suppose some here would see me as responsible for them crossing a red light BECAUSE I dared to stop at an amber light in front of them!
As for being responsible for the driver's aggression they started the whole process with their aggression, not became aggressive as a result of it.
I did not think that when I got on a bike, I had agreed to become meek and let myself get pushed around by bully boys.

[Gisen]

I agree with Meic; bowing to bad drivers just makes them think they were correct to bully others.

[emergency_pants]

I think all the different responses goes to show that everyone reacts completely differently, both drivers and cyclists. Also depending on what mood they're in too!

I guess the bottom line is do whatever you want but stay safe. My initial reaction is to be aggressive too so I'm no angel, but I do believe that the wiser option is to react passively. You can call it "meek" if you want but I suppose it depends on what you define as "strength" doesn't it? I would say that greater strength and options come from yielding, reacting with mental agility and controlling within your own terms, rather than resisting, fighting and risk losing control or getting yourself or someone else hurt. That's all about regret. I wish I had said this, done that, not done that, etc etc etc. Best avoided. So what... an idiot is an idiot.. what are you gonna do about it whether you fight or not? It's all petty one-upmanship. I find that if I keep myself safe and do the right thing, I know I'll have no regrettable thoughts later in the day and I find I don't need to make the other person know it to make me feel better.

So is it wisdom vs strength or jsut those who desire to get the last word and those who don't?

Like I said before, I actually think the only way to stop someone bullying you is to smash his face in, but that's insane. So I take the other option and not be reduced to petty squabbling over an encounter with a fool.

But it's clearly totally individual as to where the line is drawn and at what point enough is enough, so eachto their own

[GeoffL]

As for being responsible for the driver's aggression they started the whole process with their aggression, not became aggressive as a result of it.

Nobody's saying that you'd be responsible for their aggression just that you have it in your power to mitigate their aggression so that nobody (including the aggressor) gets hurt. No matter how tempting it might be, try not to think of using the road as war or even competition. The primary objective has to be to get from A to B safely, and the secondary objective to help others stay safe along the way.

I agree with Meic; bowing to bad drivers just makes them think they were correct to bully others.

I have to wonder just what you mean by that. By not bowing to bad drivers, do you mean that you'd ensure you taught them a lesson? Do you believe you can "not bow to them" in any meaningful way without escalating the situation? Do you honestly think that by (say) continuing to obstruct a motorist's way for significantly longer than necessary for your safety (i.e. long enough to make your point) you are going to do anything other than enrage the motorist, and hence potentially make matters worse?

I did not think that when I got on a bike, I had agreed to become meek and let myself get pushed around by bully boys.

Nobody's asking you to be meek. Defensive riding requires a certain amount of assertiveness and, as the more vulnerable road user, you need as much as reasonably possible to control your situation. However, I find it helps all concerned to adopt a "live and let live" ethos. Helping faster traffic to pass in safety isn't letting yourself get pushed around, it's just courteous. Not allowing the inconsiderate manner of others to get under your skin isn't meek, it's just accepting that some road users are pr*ts who're not worth getting uptight about.

Geoff

[meic]

I have absolutely no problem with people overtaking me. In fact I prefer vehicles to get past me and let me have the road to myself.
I do not care about the journey times of people I have never met.

However if I am riding the bike and someone beeps their horn because they want me to get out of their way when I am getting on with my own riding they are not "Living and let Live" and have just taken the option of "Live and Let Live" off my list of possibilities.

If I am riding my motorbike and there is a lorry restricted to 40mph ahead of me and I have the right to do 60 mph. Do I beep my horn and expect then to pull off the road? No I wait until it is safe and overtake. Do I abuse the truck driver for his prescence? Do I expect the truck driver to go round blind bends in the gutter so I can make a dangerous overtake alongside?

Most of all if I try and overtake the Lorry because I cant wait any longer and crash and kill myself, would anyone blame the truck driver because he failed to pull off the road?
No the only people who have the right to take priority like that are those with flashing blue lights. The rest of us can wait until it is safe to overtake.

The only reason that people use these bullying tactics is because they work! If you dont let yourself get bullied then they may give up trying.

As for the safety, yes if there is an incident on the road, where a genuine mistake is made then you do everything to promote safety.
However being in the Army is not very safe and it is considered the right thing to sacrifice some safety for your right to live life without being oppressed. So if it applies on a national level I dont see why I have to allow myself to be bullied on a personal level in the name of safety.
Remember that all we are trying to do is ride a cycle along the road in peace.

[GeoffL]

However if I am riding the bike and someone beeps their horn because they want me to get out of their way when I am getting on with my own riding they are not "Living and let Live" and have just taken the option of "Live and Let Live" off my list of possibilities.

I suspect that gives your answer to the question posed by this topic, i.e. "Should one sink to their level?" In your case, I guess the answer is a resounding "Yes!"

Geoff

[Gisen]

Meic is correct again. Noone is talking about obstructing drivers from overtaking when it is safe to do so except Geoff.

[emergency_pants]

You will rarely convince an irate motorist to share the road, and you don't want to provoke a person unstable enough to harass you in the first place. The best bet is to use your riding skills and try to keep calm in the event you are harassed.

Note a car's license plate, description and occupants will help when reporting an incident to the authorities.

If it's a matter serious enough to infringe your civil liberty or put you in danger, then it's definitely a matter for the police.

Just out of interest, why is someone using their horn at you so offensive anyway? It's not so bad that's it's worth getting angry or upset about. It's just someone expressing themselves by pushing a button on their steering wheel. Have you ever driven in europe? If you get upset there about impatient drivers and horns, you'd be constantly fighting and you'd have a heart attack before you ever got knocked down!

The other thing is, if someone uses their horn at you, flashes their lights and waves, how do you know whether they are being a git or genuinely need to get past you? i.e. a doctor, nurse, midwife, bloke taking his wife to maternity, countless other things. What would your reaction be if you were racing to the hospital to get to your injured kid and some cyclist took offense and rode slowly in front of you, making hand gestures and slamming on the brakes? You have no idea what is going through someone's mind so why react negatively and be so intolerant?

If it's anything more serious than some hooting and a shout, then it's a police matter anyway, so best not make the situation worse. If it's just some idiot being impatient then shrug it off and (in every case) do whatever is the safest option.

[adinigel]

....So are my girlfriend and I not innocent, just because we happen to be the targets?

Your suggestion, not mine. I would have considered you were both innocent parties right up until the 'squirt of the brakes bit'.

Protecting 'true' innocents is small consolation if we go under someone's wheels because they didn't give us enough room...

and reducing the space even further by 'giving a squirt on the brakes' makes you safer in what way? I would have thought that would make you less safe!

Horrible though it sounds, given the choice between being run down and someone else being run down, I know what I'd prefer!

Absolutely, but braking unnecessarily when someone is too close in teh first place is only going to put you in a less safe situation!

Nigel

[EdinburghFixed]

I would have considered you were both innocent parties right up until the 'squirt of the brakes bit'.

Driving close behind someone and sounding your horn in impatience is innocent? I'm glad I don't have to ride near you

Protecting 'true' innocents is small consolation if we go under someone's wheels because they didn't give us enough room...

and reducing the space even further by 'giving a squirt on the brakes' makes you safer in what way? I would have thought that would make you less safe!

So if we sped up, could we increase the space and be safer? I think they will likely hold position either way.

My experience (in the car and on the bike) is that you can often make people drop back by slowing down, as they realise they aren't going to be able to bully past. If not, at least the speed of the confrontation has been reduced - wouldn't you rather be going at 10mph with someone six feet off your wheel, than at 25mph?

So in a sense, I'm saying I'd rather be hit on my own terms. Which does sound bizarre!

My initial dilemma was more about motivation than deed though. I wanted him to back off but I didn't brake with saintly motives, part of it was anger at being placed in a vulnerable position and I wanted to strike back. So much of what is being said does apply.

[adinigel]

I would have considered you were both innocent parties right up until the 'squirt of the brakes bit'.

Driving close behind someone and sounding your horn in impatience is innocent? I'm glad I don't have to ride near you

Where did I suggest the tailgater was an innocent party?

Protecting 'true' innocents is small consolation if we go under someone's wheels because they didn't give us enough room...

and reducing the space even further by 'giving a squirt on the brakes' makes you safer in what way? I would have thought that would make you less safe!

So if we sped up, could we increase the space and be safer? I think they will likely hold position either way.

I would agree with you...

My experience (in the car and on the bike) is that you can often make people drop back by slowing down, as they realise they aren't going to be able to bully past. If not, at least the speed of the confrontation has been reduced - wouldn't you rather be going at 10mph with someone six feet off your wheel, than at 25mph?

I would rather they passed me and involve someone else. In the car, the general advice is to increase the distance between yourself and the car in front to 4 seconds so that you don't have to brake hard thus minimising the likelihood of teh vehicle behind going into the back of you. Perhaps I interpreted your use of the words 'quick squirt' wrongly. I interpreted 'quick squirt' as more of a stab on the brakes.

So in a sense, I'm saying I'd rather be hit on my own terms. Which does sound bizarre!

It does indeed. I'd rather not be hit at all.

My initial dilemma was more about motivation than deed though. I wanted him to back off but I didn't brake with saintly motives, part of it was anger at being placed in a vulnerable position and I wanted to strike back. So much of what is being said does apply.

It isn't easy, before I became involved in driver training I tried kicking a camper van that cut me up. Had slanging matches when drivers tried telling me a should be in a cycle lane on teh left when I wanted to go straight on. I still slip up occasionally (if I'm not in a liveried car), so I'm far from perfect myself. On these forums it is easier to think something through before posting (not that I always do!) so I can try and post without so much emotion....well on occasion anyway!

Nigel