Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

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anothereye
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Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby anothereye » 13 Mar 2009, 1:17pm

I've drawn a Venn diagram in the hope of promoting a discussion. There are 2 points I want to make but (at the risk of being obtuse) I'd like to see other peoples comments first.

Gerry

Click on image to enlarge.
Update: I've re-drawn it after some useful comments on this thread:
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/download/file.php?id=278&mode=view
(the one in this post is the firat draft).
Image Attachments
transport.jpg
Last edited by anothereye on 13 Mar 2009, 7:08pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wildduck
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby Wildduck » 13 Mar 2009, 1:19pm

You missed the poice cars and white vans that like parking in cycle lanes :wink:
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EdinburghFixed
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby EdinburghFixed » 13 Mar 2009, 2:11pm

Yeah, my first response is that there's an incorrect area (the bit for bikes should either be overlapping with pedestrians or cars at all times). I can't think of anywhere that this condition is not true in practice as even a well-observed mandatory cycle lane is shared with cars, as they have to cross at junctions (and of course, parked cars again). This makes it vital, even more vital than when cycling on the road 'proper', to watch out for cars and means the area is not truly separate.

It might or might not be of value to block out some of the potential area with a parking sign, but in practice this effects all road users so I'm not so sure.

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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby skrx » 13 Mar 2009, 2:23pm

EdinburghFixed wrote:Yeah, my first response is that there's an incorrect area (the bit for bikes should either be overlapping with pedestrians or cars at all times). I can't think of anywhere that this condition is not true in practice as even a well-observed mandatory cycle lane is shared with cars, as they have to cross at junctions (and of course, parked cars again). This makes it vital, even more vital than when cycling on the road 'proper', to watch out for cars and means the area is not truly separate.

It might or might not be of value to block out some of the potential area with a parking sign, but in practice this effects all road users so I'm not so sure.


There are a few places that are cycle only, indicated by a white bike on a circular blue sign. For instance, where cyclists are given space to avoid some traffic calming, or on a cycle subway under a busy junction.

Should the pedestrian area overlap all the motor area, except the motorway bit? Pedestrians are allowed to walk in the road after all.

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anothereye
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby anothereye » 13 Mar 2009, 2:27pm

Hi EdinburghFixed, I take your points but the diagram is supposed to be more specific: It excludes parking and pedestrians crossing the road. Also; it's not a representation of actual practice (eg. motor vehicles crossing unbroken white lines designating cycle lanes) but rather a theoretical representation of what is legal.
My motivation for doing it is about signage; now what do you notice?

Gerry
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby anothereye » 13 Mar 2009, 2:34pm

skrx wrote:
EdinburghFixed wrote:Yeah, my first response is that there's an incorrect area (the bit for bikes should either be overlapping with pedestrians or cars at all times). I can't think of anywhere that this condition is not true in practice as even a well-observed mandatory cycle lane is shared with cars, as they have to cross at junctions (and of course, parked cars again). This makes it vital, even more vital than when cycling on the road 'proper', to watch out for cars and means the area is not truly separate.

It might or might not be of value to block out some of the potential area with a parking sign, but in practice this effects all road users so I'm not so sure.


There are a few places that are cycle only, indicated by a white bike on a circular blue sign. For instance, where cyclists are given space to avoid some traffic calming, or on a cycle subway under a busy junction.

Should the pedestrian area overlap all the motor area, except the motorway bit? Pedestrians are allowed to walk in the road after all.


skrx,
Oh yes, there are country lanes without pavements so I do need to amend it. Thanks for that.There are usually pavements so pedestrians will only walk on the roads when crossing (or jaywalking).
I could have used the sign you mention for 'cycle only' but I found the other one first (I only wanted one sign per area).

Gerry
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anothereye
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby anothereye » 13 Mar 2009, 3:02pm

Here's the second draft (taking into account the above comments).

Gerry
Click on image to enlarge.
Image Attachments
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EdinburghFixed
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby EdinburghFixed » 13 Mar 2009, 3:20pm

anothereye wrote:My motivation for doing it is about signage; now what do you notice?


Hmm. OK, well there is no sign for 'pedestrian / bike / car' which is needed to cover the 95%. :?

So is the diagram supposed to refer to signage or practice? Because (for example) 99.9% of the pavement network doesn't have a 'no bikes' sign (or indeed a 'no cars' sign which is equally, or even more, relevant). Neither do many shared paths have the respective signs - I see none round here despite quite extensive shared use designations.

Also, motorbikes are not included. However there are areas they can go where cars cannot (and areas where buses can go that taxis cannot, etc. etc.) - I'm not sure if there are signs for all permutations though, or money to place them :)

Do you think it's worth differentiating between segregated and unsegregated shared use?

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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby meic » 13 Mar 2009, 3:28pm

Wheras cyclists are forbiden from riding on pavements, cars are not forbiden from driving on them.
The idea that pedestrians have priority on the pavements is not respected or enforced. Police are more likely to detain the awkward pedestrian than the pushy motorist.
So your yellow pedestrian area has to swing around to partly overlap the car areas. This is also true of pedestrian crossings and pedestrianised zones. These crossings may only be a small part of the roads but are an essential part of walkways.
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby dan_b » 13 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

meic wrote:Wheras cyclists are forbiden from riding on pavements, cars are not forbiden from driving on them.

Um, in law or in practice? While I believe the latter may be true in some areas, I don't know of any legislation that would give rise to that situation.

At the risk of resurrecting an RLJ thread, see viewtopic.php?p=134363#p134363
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meic
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby meic » 13 Mar 2009, 3:40pm

Just look at the highway code.

It clearly states that cyclists MUST not cycle on the pavement.

For cars it states how you may drive on the pavements. The wording is loose enough to allow people to drive along the pavement. Wheras they should not drive along the pavement it is legal to drive on pavements and illegal to cycle on them. So if a cyclist hits a car on a pavement they had better start apologising!
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby anothereye » 13 Mar 2009, 3:43pm

When are cars permitted to drive on pavements (I guess they are allowed to park with 2 wheels on the pavement in places so they would have to drive on the pavement to position themselves)? Meic; do you a reference to the Highway Code?

Gerry

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NUKe
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby NUKe » 13 Mar 2009, 3:57pm

cars are not suposed to park 2 wheels on the pavement, its lazy motorists that do. THey are allowed to drive across pavementsto gain access to property. And they are certainly not suposed to drive along pavements
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby gilesjuk » 13 Mar 2009, 4:47pm

NUKe wrote:cars are not suposed to park 2 wheels on the pavement, its lazy motorists that do. THey are allowed to drive across pavementsto gain access to property. And they are certainly not suposed to drive along pavements


Not lazy, they're just concerned about their cars being hit. Of course it does encourage people to squeeze past tearing off wing mirrors, so it's pointless.

Also parking two wheels on the pavement regularly ruins the suspension as well as blocking the pavement for wheelchair users.

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anothereye
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Re: Pavements, Cycle Lanes and Roads.

Postby anothereye » 13 Mar 2009, 4:55pm

The Highway Code
145
You MUST NOT drive on or over a pavement, footpath or bridleway except to gain lawful access to property, or in the case of an emergency.

So isn't that exactly the same for cyclists?

Gerry
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