Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

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anothereye
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Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby anothereye » 13 Mar 2009, 9:00pm

for a long time I've wondered if motorists are breaking the law every-time they overtake a cyclist on zigzag lines. another thread has pointed me to this:
"The following road traffic offences have been added to the fixed penalty system since 1997:
Overtaking a moving or stationary vehicle on a zebra, pelican or puffin crossing contrary to regulation 24 of the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997 (three offences)"
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090119/text/90119w0052.htm

About 6 years ago I was approaching a zebra crossing on my bike and slowed down to let someone cross. Instinctively I knew that the car behind had no intention of stopping so I moved further out into the lane so that it could not pass me. The car braked and was hit by the car behind! We all stopped and the driver of the first car had a go at me before realising that she was in the wrong. I had to laugh as I didn't want to stop at the crossing only to wait for the car to pass before the pedestrian could cross (although, in the end, I did stop to 'communicate' with the drivers!).
Gerry

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Mick F
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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby Mick F » 13 Mar 2009, 9:23pm

It is illegal to overtake the "lead vehicle" on the approach to a Zebra Crossing within the zig zag area.

A bike is a vehicle.

If I was the "lead vehicle" with traffic behind me, I would take the Primary Position.
Mick F. Cornwall

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meic
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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby meic » 13 Mar 2009, 10:41pm

Not so Mick F.

The highway code is incorrect on this point.

The Law states MOTOR vehicle.

I too would take the primary position and the motorists would not object, why should they as they have to stop for the pedestrian dont they? :wink:
Yma o Hyd

thirdcrank
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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby thirdcrank » 13 Mar 2009, 11:07pm

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/240001-a.htm#24

Check those crazy zig-zag regs :roll:

Two subsections with different prohibitions:

24 (2) (1) (a) No overtaking a moving motor vehicle on the approach

24 (2) (1) (b) No passing the waiting vehicle nearest the crossing - no mention of motor

(I presume the logic is that a non-motor vehicle, which would include a horse and cart might only be moving at 2 mph. On the other hand, one stationary vehicle is just as stationary as another.)
Last edited by thirdcrank on 13 Mar 2009, 11:53pm, edited 1 time in total.

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meic
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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby meic » 13 Mar 2009, 11:50pm

OK we were both right and both wrong :D

In a way that makes sense. A car can overtake a cyclist when they are both travelling over an empty crossing. However they can not overtake the cyclist and cross the crossing if somebody is trying to use it.

In theory it would be risky to overtake a cyclist on the zig zags because if they choose to stop while you do it then you break the law.
In practice as a car driver you can do what you like and nothing will happen to you.
Yma o Hyd

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Mick F
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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby Mick F » 14 Mar 2009, 7:09am

meic wrote:OK we were both right and both wrong :D


I agree!
I was sure I was right as it was explained to me during my run-up to my Advanced Driving test. My attention was drawn to the "problem" of people not understanding the overtaking rule. When I was being observed, I was driving down a dual carriageway in Plymstock and crossed a Zebra Crossing in the RH lane whilst passing a slower car. The observer picked me up on this.

I thought I knew that to "overtake" was illegal within the zig zags, ie, pulling out and passing - not already being in the outside lane well before the zig zags like I had been. In fact, I'd passed two or three cars in the LH lane shortly before, so stayed in the RH lane. It's a 40 limit along that road, and was encouraged to drive up to, and including the limit.

But no, Passing is Passing. Also, I was told that in practice, it covers all vehicles. I think it's a matter of the law not being specific enough, as had I passed a horse and cart, I wouldn't have specifically broken the law!

So, had that been my test, I'd have failed. I learned something that day. (I learned a few other things too!) Anyway, I did subsequently pass, and I've been a member of the Institute of Advance Motorists since 1988.
Mick F. Cornwall

thirdcrank
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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Mar 2009, 8:15am

Perhaps the point that this illustrates is that you can legislate in pernickety detail - detail so fine that nobody can be expected to remember it - and lose sight of the wood for the trees. A pedestrian crossing is intended to make life safer and easier for people who want to cross the road and nobody should do anything which adds to the danger, like overtaking when they have not a clear view, or parking where they obstruct the view. That should be obvious to everybody, but it isn't, so we try to deal with selfishness through legislation - something that runs through our traffic laws like 'Blackpool' through rock.

Other legal facts about pedestrian crossings:

A driver need only give precedence to a pedestrian on the crossing. This means that a driver can pass behind a pedestrian as close as they like and not contravene these regulations. No requirement to stop for a pedestrian waiting to cross. This means that somebody pushing a child in a pram or pushing somebody in a wheelchair - probably the most vulnerable of road users - must either push the pram/ wheelchair into danger, cross backwards, or wait for a considerate driver to stop.

Around here, the highwaymen are so keen to preserve parking places that they sometimes build out the waiting area at the crossing, then allow parking right up to it. There is one quite near my home, on the busy A 643 (a continuation of Elland Road and the soccer stadium) where this has been done on a bend which means that waiting pedestrians are completely obscured by parked vehicles. It's also directly outside a primary school. I had correspondence with the person 'responsible'. He argued that as the parked vehicles were mainly cars, a pedestrian's upper body would still be visible (no exemption in the regs that started this for cars or even coupés.) I suggested that a child late for school, perhaps through the illness of a parent, might be just the sort of small person who might run across the road there, when the patrol had gone. He told me children ran across the road carelessly everywhere and implied, I think, that I was nitpicking. My parting shot was that I would be available to precede or follow him as a witness if an a pedestrian were to be knocked down there. I am pleased to report that I have not been able to say, 'I told you so' but I'd like to think I caused somebody some sleepless nights.

(In case anybody has missed it, pedestrian crossings are one of my hobby horses. :evil: Forty odd years ago I gained a certain notoriety at work when I got a colleague who was giving me a lift home after we had finished our shift to stop so I could report a driver parked on the approach to a zebra, in the days before zig-zags.)

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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby DaveP » 14 Mar 2009, 8:34am

I'm having difficulty believing something I've read on this thread :shock:
I cant imagine moving out to prevent a motor vehicle from passing me on the approach to a crossing. I could do all sorts of other things, ranging from reporting a driver who failed to stop up to waiting around to give a statement, but moving out - I dont think so!
I've seen several collisions approaching crossings, even, as a pedestrian, " caused" one once. In a car they tend to be no more than fender benders, but on a bike...
Sorry - I'll be holding whatever position I happen to be in (usually not too close to the kerb).

Are you serious about this?

And that is a serious question.
Trying to retain enough fitness to grow old disgracefully...

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anothereye
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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby anothereye » 14 Mar 2009, 9:23am

DaveP wrote:I'm having difficulty believing something I've read on this thread :shock:
I cant imagine moving out to prevent a motor vehicle from passing me on the approach to a crossing. I could do all sorts of other things, ranging from reporting a driver who failed to stop up to waiting around to give a statement, but moving out - I dont think so!
I've seen several collisions approaching crossings, even, as a pedestrian, " caused" one once. In a car they tend to be no more than fender benders, but on a bike...
Sorry - I'll be holding whatever position I happen to be in (usually not too close to the kerb).
Are you serious about this?
And that is a serious question.

Dave, I'm sorry if made the manouver sound more dangerous than it was, a woman and child were starting to cross and I felt protective towards them. Also, I sensed that I would have time time to pull in if the car (doing about 20mph) failed to brake. It is not something that I would advocate but in that moment my senses were alert. I'm not defending my action; just recollecting it, maybe it was a risk that at the time felt worthwhile!

Gerry
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Mick F
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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby Mick F » 14 Mar 2009, 9:34am

Mick F wrote:If I was the "lead vehicle" with traffic behind me, I would take the Primary Position.

meic wrote:I too would take the primary position and the motorists would not object, why should they as they have to stop for the pedestrian dont they? :wink:


Dave, are you referring to these?

I expect I wasn't clear. Sorry.
I was answering the OP's point about being out to protect yourself and others.

In traffic, I tend to hold my course, and in general, if I'm in front, I'll stay out in Primary and keep a good move on. That way, all can see me. If I'm within a stream of traffic, or having to go slowly, like on a steep hill, I'm usually well to the left.

I didn't want to infer I make a habit of pulling out purpose on the approach to a Zebra.
Mick F. Cornwall

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DaveP
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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby DaveP » 14 Mar 2009, 9:55pm

I suspect I wasn't making myself completely clear either - I wasnt criticising so much as feeling "Goodluck to you - but I'm not up for this one!"
I have from time to time experienced the desire to warn following vehicles of a potential situation but as I seem to have taken root in an area where stopping my car just before a group of parked cars (because I have spotted oncoming vehicles) regularly results in the vehicle behind shooting past and then reversing out in front of a bus or similiar I have learnt not to act on the impulse :cry:
Trying to retain enough fitness to grow old disgracefully...

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Re: Zigzag lines at pedestrian crossings!

Postby meic » 14 Mar 2009, 10:26pm

The majority of my Zebra crossings are at places where the cars are not going much faster than myself. I would not be in the gutter to start with and can easily just move a bit further out as I aproach a Zebra. If there was a pedestrian waiting I would have moved out from the edge to avoid going close anyway.

If it was a faster road where cars were flying past on my offside then I would not try it either.
Yma o Hyd