Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

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adinigel
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by adinigel »

kwackers wrote:....But we don't teach people to properly read the roads, we don't teach that the maximum speed limit is a maximum and thus many people also think it's a minimum.....


Speak for yourself. You may not teach people how to read the road properly but I certainly do and so do a great more trainers I know! I find this comment by you offensive!

Nigel
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Mick F
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Mick F »

I think kwackers was inferring that we don't "teach" people to read the road properly. I'm sure all our driving/riding instructors teach people to read the road properly, but the problem is, it doesn't sink in permanently and remain "taught". People, sadly, learn by example after they have been taught properly.

You see this all the time on our roads. All drivers/riders have gone through proper instruction and have passed their tests, but what happens every day on our roads? Mayhem because of speeding, stupidity, thoughtlessness, ignorance etc.

Remember, these drivers and riders have been taught properly, but it doesn't stay in their skulls.

BTW, I'm and advance driver, and I am proud of it.
Mick F. Cornwall
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paulah
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by paulah »

Edwards wrote:First may I remind every body a little girl was hurt by a cyclist on this path. That is why the limit.


I don't think anyone would disagree that cyclists need to take more care on such paths but the £1000 potential fine is totally out of proportion.

Last year a woman was killed on a pedestrian crossing near me by a car driver. People routinely drive down this 30mph road at 40mph. On another 30mph one-way street speeds of 45 are normal and I was almost taken out several times by drivers cutting across to turn off left. If anyone ever bothered to enforce the limit then the drivers would be fined, at a guess, about £60.
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kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

adinigel wrote:
kwackers wrote:....But we don't teach people to properly read the roads, we don't teach that the maximum speed limit is a maximum and thus many people also think it's a minimum.....


Speak for yourself. You may not teach people how to read the road properly but I certainly do and so do a great more trainers I know! I find this comment by you offensive!

Nigel


Perhaps you do, but I reckon by observation 30-40% of people on the roads demonstrate an inability to read the road and the conditions other users etc.
Why you find this offensive I've no idea - would you prefer me to make statements at odds with what I see? I should point out I've no idea what your students end up like, the statement is made 'generally' and not aimed at an individual - perhaps you shouldn't be quite as touchy...
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paulah
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by paulah »

If drivers are so good at reading the road then why do the majority have to slam on their brakes before every single bend on a country road or carry on at 35mph until they're almost at the red light and then brake? Anyone who's a halfway decent driver should be able to anticipate these things.
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adinigel
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by adinigel »

kwackers wrote:
adinigel wrote:
kwackers wrote:....But we don't teach people to properly read the roads, we don't teach that the maximum speed limit is a maximum and thus many people also think it's a minimum.....


Speak for yourself. You may not teach people how to read the road properly but I certainly do and so do a great more trainers I know! I find this comment by you offensive!

Nigel


Perhaps you do, but I reckon by observation 30-40% of people on the roads demonstrate an inability to read the road and the conditions other users etc.
Why you find this offensive I've no idea - would you prefer me to make statements at odds with what I see? I should point out I've no idea what your students end up like, the statement is made 'generally' and not aimed at an individual - perhaps you shouldn't be quite as touchy...


Why do I find your comment offensive? Because you have phrased your post as if it is a fact. Your comment was
But we don't teach people to properly read the roads, we don't teach that the maximum speed limit is a maximum
. Your comment was a complete load of twaddle! How many trainers did you consult to come to that conclusion?

Nigel
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adinigel
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by adinigel »

paulah wrote:If drivers are so good at reading the road then why do the majority have to slam on their brakes before every single bend on a country road or carry on at 35mph until they're almost at the red light and then brake? Anyone who's a halfway decent driver should be able to anticipate these things.


Of course they should and I would dispute that the majority of drivers do what you claim.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Cunobelin »

I always find it extremely funny that whenever enforcement of speed is mentioned we get the warped and twisted view that no other road policing exists....

Speeding, jumping lights and other antisocial activities are simply an efficient, and unequivocal way of identifying bad drivers and or cyclists. Of course the Police are out there, but as with the Manchester experiment - putting Traffic Police out to identify the bad drivers and act upon their assessment of the situation became "revenue generating" and "oppression of the otherwise law abiding motorist" within minutes of the announcement!

Lets face it - any clampdown on the freedom to be a Numpty is going to be unpopular!

We need to educate road users and the ability to spot, and identify these idiots is an an unprecedented high, lets use the systems we have, accept that these road users have shown that they are either unable or unwilling to obey traffic rules and apply remedial education...... where is the issue with that?
kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

adinigel wrote:Why do I find your comment offensive? Because you have phrased your post as if it is a fact. Your comment was
But we don't teach people to properly read the roads, we don't teach that the maximum speed limit is a maximum
. Your comment was a complete load of twaddle! How many trainers did you consult to come to that conclusion?

Nigel


Why do I need to consult trainers?

Surely if people are trained 'properly' (whatever 'properly' is) then they'd retain the information and not do it? Or are you denying that there is a problem out there?

It's a fairly simple thing, if people are 'reverting' after apparently being trained then they're not being trained properly are they? Doesn't matter whether you believe you're doing it correctly or not - the results are what speak not the actions.

This isn't a personal slight on you or any trainer - it's a questioning of whether we're doing it right, if you believe you are but it's not 'taking' then the psychology we're applying to train people is obviously wrong and needs looking at. Denying the problem exists achieves precisely nothing.
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

Cunobelin wrote:I always find it extremely funny that whenever enforcement of speed is mentioned we get the warped and twisted view that no other road policing exists....

Based on observation of 30 years of driving/motorcycling/cycling I can say that there was a time when you kept your eyes peeled for 'rozzers' because they could and did pull people all the time. These day I see people blatantly breaking the law - not usually by speeding but just general bad driving and struggle to think back the last time I saw someone get nicked. Therefore whilst I'm sure other road policing does exist it's at best a bit thin on the ground these days.

Speeding, jumping lights and other antisocial activities are simply an efficient, and unequivocal way of identifying bad drivers and or cyclists. Of course the Police are out there, but as with the Manchester experiment - putting Traffic Police out to identify the bad drivers and act upon their assessment of the situation became "revenue generating" and "oppression of the otherwise law abiding motorist" within minutes of the announcement!

I think the issue is that when speed cameras where first put in place, revenue generation rapidly did become the name of the game - bit like parking.
For example a straight national speed limit road near me was downgraded to a 30 and a camera hidden behind a sign post. The road offered around a mile visibility, wasn't in a built up area and linked two centres of population. There hadn't been an accident on that road for years.
Interestingly when the council joined up to the road safety whatsit which required them to only put cameras where there actually was a problem - they promptly removed that camera. You can't help but think perhaps safety wasn't at the forefront of it's placing.

There are other examples of this - people aren't stupid, they can tell when they're being played. Downgrading roads for no other reason plays directly into the hands of the anti-speed camera people and gives them the ammunition they need. As a consequence speed cameras have an image now that will probably stay with them forever regardless of how good their placing is. And don't get me wrong I believe speed cameras still have their uses even if their effectiveness of the current generation has been negated somewhat by technology.

We need to educate road users and the ability to spot, and identify these idiots is an an unprecedented high, lets use the systems we have, accept that these road users have shown that they are either unable or unwilling to obey traffic rules and apply remedial education...... where is the issue with that?

Not at all.
And the day when someone overtakes too close and at speed such that I get sucked into the road behind them and then have the satisfaction of seeing them pulled shortly after by a policeman I'll be made up. But I reckon that day is more than a little while off.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Cunobelin »

This is a little fantasy world where Police sit on every corner and road users accept that they have offended and accept the consequences...... However as proven in Manchester this is still unacceptable and "revenue raising etc"

There were never enough Police to give the coverage described. It is a myth. Do you really have a personal road policing unit?

What we do have is a system that detects and prosecutes more motoring offences than ever before. Why do we need to compromise that, there will never be the perfect world you describe.

As for "revenue generating", this is even funnier than the enforcement claims.

Let me explain.........its a bit like going to the cinema..... don't go to the Cinema and you won't need to buy tickets, however if you decide to go to then paying the ticket fee is your choice.

Motoring offences are the same - it is a choice made by the road user to offend. No-one is forcing them to park illegally, jump lights, speed or be antisocial or reckless. The financial consequences are simply a tax on stupidity and arrogance.

The problem for many is exactly the opposite - the use of technology is increasing the chances opf being caught for a large variety of motoring offences and that is why we want to go back to "good old policing" because the truth is that offenders are less likely to get caught and that ia the aim.
adinigel
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by adinigel »

kwackers wrote:....Why do I need to consult trainers?

Doh! Because to be able to state something isn't being taught you need to talk to the people that do the training. :roll: You can't simply make such a sweeping statement!

kwackers wrote:Surely if people are trained 'properly' (whatever 'properly' is) then they'd retain the information and not do it? Or are you denying that there is a problem out there?=

It's a fairly simple thing, if people are 'reverting' after apparently being trained then they're not being trained properly are they? Doesn't matter whether you believe you're doing it correctly or not - the results are what speak not the actions.

This isn't a personal slight on you or any trainer - it's a questioning of whether we're doing it right, if you believe you are but it's not 'taking' then the psychology we're applying to train people is obviously wrong and needs looking at. Denying the problem exists achieves precisely nothing.


One of the biggest problems which overrides the training is peer group pressure. One of my ex-pupils came back to me in a panic because she had been caught on a camera, twice in the same week. Luckily she was offered one of the Speed Awareness courses in lieu of the points & fine. After talking to her a bit more, it looks as though it came down to pressure from her 'friends'. "The cameras in Swindon don't work any more" etc etc. Hopefully the lesson has now sunken in better.

As far as I'm concerned, the more cameras the better, they only catch volunteers after all. Use some of the income to put more Police on the roads.

Remember though, the UK still has one of the best road safety records worldwide. So we are doing a lot better than many countries.

Nigel
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Cunobelin
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Cunobelin »

adinigel wrote: Luckily she was offered one of the Speed Awareness courses in lieu of the points & fine. After talking to her a bit more, it looks as though it came down to pressure from her 'friends'. "The cameras in Swindon don't work any more" etc etc. Hopefully the lesson has now sunken in better.

(Edited from original post)

Nigel


Therein lies a problem with some road users... there was a speeding advocate on the old C+ forum who claimed that she was now better trained and qualified to set her own speed (independent of speed limits) due to the "advanced awareness" and training on the Speed Awareness Course!

There was no way she was going to recognise that she was simply an arrogant and stupid numpty

This is again where assessment comes in. Many fleet operators now assess and train drivers identifying and recognising the higher risk to other road users from their attitude.. Arriva at one depot halved their accident rates!
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Mick F
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Mick F »

I repeat:

Mick F wrote:I think kwackers was inferring that we don't "teach" people to read the road properly. I'm sure all our driving/riding instructors teach people to read the road properly, but the problem is, it doesn't sink in permanently and remain "taught". People, sadly, learn by example after they have been taught properly.

You see this all the time on our roads. All drivers/riders have gone through proper instruction and have passed their tests, but what happens every day on our roads? Mayhem because of speeding, stupidity, thoughtlessness, ignorance etc.

Remember, these drivers and riders have been taught properly, but it doesn't stay in their skulls.

BTW, I'm and advance driver, and I am proud of it.
Mick F. Cornwall
kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

Cunobelin wrote:What we do have is a system that detects and prosecutes more motoring offences than ever before. Why do we need to compromise that, there will never be the perfect world you describe.

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of these motoring offences - is it across the board or as I suspect a massive increase in speeding and a massive drop in everything else?

The problem for many is exactly the opposite - the use of technology is increasing the chances opf being caught for a large variety of motoring offences and that is why we want to go back to "good old policing" because the truth is that offenders are less likely to get caught and that ia the aim.

Less likely? Possibly - but a visible police presence is more likely to result in people driving better since they're more likely to think they'll be seen. Isn't that the point of the exercise? To improve the standard of driving not to simply lull people into a false sense of security and then catch them out? It seems to me that the only people who get caught by technology are the stupid ones, should I care to I can drive around locally as fast as I like with virtually no chance of getting caught since I know where the cameras both mobile and fixed are.
I'm curious, which other motoring offences is technology currently improving the chances of getting caught for? I'm going to presume you're talking about number plate recognition systems?
So what we're talking about is technology currently catches speeders, people who don't pay their road tax or insurance (assuming these people are stupid enough to register the car in their own name and thus respond to the automatically mailed letters - most don't).
Speeding, tax dodging or having no insurance don't directly make my life on the road more dangerous - cutting me up, overtaking too close do.

So I'll re-iterate.
I'll believe road policing is changing for the better when someone who overtakes me too close or cuts me up is pulled over and prosecuted. It's never happened yet despite the sheer number of such offences and I don't expect with the way policing is going for it to happen any time soon.
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