Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

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thirdcrank
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by thirdcrank »

Nigel

IMO the fact that you post highlighting your occupation - you even include it in your username - means that you must think it is relevant and that cuts both ways. I notice that when you dissected my post for analysis, you side-stepped the bit about psychological suitability testing of drivers.

Incidentally, I agree 100% about education being more effective than enforcement. (And that covers much more than just driving.) I'd be the first to admit that enforcement, especially in road safety matters, particularly if it only occurs after a serious collision, is bolting the stable door. If it works at all it is as a deterrent to those who choose not to apply what they have been taught. OTOH, I do believe there is a lot more to be taught than the technical skills of driving, with a bit thrown in about considerate behaviour. For many drivers the need is for anger management training and similar - and I reiterate an assessment of psychological suitability. In the same way that being able to shoot accurately is no indicator of the abilty to handle a firearm safely.
adinigel
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by adinigel »

I would have no problem with some sort of psychological testing and that could fit in well with driver education.

The irrelevance I mentioned is that I wouldn't push for further driver education simply because I an a driver trainer. Twist it the other way round and yes, the relevance may be there ie I am a driver trainer because I believe I may be able to make a difference, albeit a very small difference.

Learner training isn't simply a case of teaching technical skills, we do try and reach the attitude too. But, as I have mentioned before, we need to get at the mind much earlier in their life - before they reach 10/11 which is why I believe Bikeability could play a major role in the development of individuals attitude to road safety.

Nigel
DSA registered Driving Instructor, RoSPA Diploma in Advanced Car Instruction, SAFED registered van trainer, National Standards Cycling Instructor
steve_m
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by steve_m »

kwackers wrote:I was in Vancouver not so long ago and whilst there did a fair bit of running, at points where I was considering crossing the roads no sooner had I looked over my shoulder to see if the way was clear than traffic more often than not would stop and wave me across. I'm not suggesting attempting to cross a road regardless of traffic is a good idea but it does show the marked difference in attitude. I'd be surprised if most people in this country were even aware of pedestrians on the pavements let alone their intentions - and even if they were aware of both they're not usually prepared to yield to them. Even crossing a slow moving congested road using the pedestrian route near me can be hit and miss - they might not have anywhere to go but a good proportion aren't too keen on you crossing (even on foot) in front of them.


I think its due to a marked difference in the law and its enforcement. In Canada pedestrians have priority over vehicles at junctions ('intersections'!), unless the junction is controlled by lights, in which case a pedestrian phase is requested by pressing a button. My Canadian host explained that the penalties for hitting pedestrians were severe, which is why he and other drivers were very careful to avoid pedestrians! I noticed this lead to a much more pedestrian-friendly attitude everywhere - even where drivers weren't obliged to stop they often would do so to let peds cross the road safely.

The car might be king in America but it isn't in Canada. :-)
kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

steve_m wrote:My Canadian host explained that the penalties for hitting pedestrians were severe, which is why he and other drivers were very careful to avoid pedestrians! I noticed this lead to a much more pedestrian-friendly attitude everywhere - even where drivers weren't obliged to stop they often would do so to let peds cross the road safely.


Exactly!

Given that the apparent increase in safety we can expect as speed cameras and their ilk remove 'unsafe' drivers hasn't materialised (and I reckon it's had long enough to have an effect). And also since we can no longer apparently expect road policing other than by automatic means, then it would appear to me that given the example above (and in other countries) that stiffer penalties are the way forward (possibly including automatic fault - unless proved otherwise).

Seems pretty obvious to me.
johncharles
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by johncharles »

Who is going to do all that training you would like to see done in schools then and where is the time required going to come from :?:[/quote]

How about the Bikeability trainers?

Nigel[/quote]

How many of them will be required :?:

When is this training going to be done, who is going to fund it if it is compulsory.
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meic
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by meic »

Kwackers said


Given that the apparent increase in safety we can expect as speed cameras and their ilk remove 'unsafe' drivers hasn't materialised (and I reckon it's had long enough to have an effect). And also since we can no longer apparently expect road policing other than by automatic means, then it would appear to me that given the example above (and in other countries) that stiffer penalties are the way forward (possibly including automatic fault - unless proved otherwise).

Do you fall for the myth that the cameras have been given a try?
People know the location of the cameras or can see them in time to slow down.
No cameras within 8 miles of me and the drivers know it. :evil:

There was one and it obviously was effective because it got burned down.
Yma o Hyd
kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

meic wrote:Do you fall for the myth that the cameras have been given a try?
People know the location of the cameras or can see them in time to slow down.
No cameras within 8 miles of me and the drivers know it. :evil:

There was one and it obviously was effective because it got burned down.


If you want spot speed reduction by all means stick a camera there. For long stretches of road you can use speed averaging cameras, for the myriad of 30mph roads with all their junctions, traffic lights etc then you're stuffed since speed averaging is pointless, spot cameras show up on GPS systems along with little voices "warning, safety camera ahead" making them all but useless. All you're really left with is the odd mobile unit - and even they tend to sit in the same spots over and over...

So do I fall for the myth that cameras have been given a try? No, but neither do I fall for the myth that we can afford to stick them at lamp post spaced intervals (and given the clutter that already spoils our streets I'd hate us to try). Or that if we did, suddenly drivers would be more attentive, give us more space or no longer cut us up whilst turning.

I also don't buy the idea that the people who overtake me too close are simply hours away from triggering a speed camera and losing their license, nor do I believe having triggered one and obtained a fine they suddenly start to think - "oh, I'm rubbish, I know I'll start to leave more space for cyclists"...
For the most part they're tootling along within the speed limit believing themselves to be 'good' drivers. (Like the grey haired old dear this morning with her 'rat dog' peering out of the rear window as she shaved my legs with her car at what I'd estimate was 35mph in a 50.

We've had many years of speed cameras now, prosecutions for speeding are many times greater than they were but I've yet to see any improvement in driving other than that forced on drivers by traffic calming and other such methods (and even then we have the classic - 'who can get to the pinch point first race'). Certainly the great safety revolution people on here seem to believe will happen shows no signs of materialising.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Cunobelin »

The "revolution" is the one that is most unpopular and hence avoided in these discussions.

Speeding, parking, tailgating, jumping red lights are all indicators of "risk taking behaviour". Recognise these as such and deal with the issues causing these driving offences.

Where the application of psychometric testing has been used following accidents or speeding offences the number of accidents has been gretly decreased. Arriva claimed a 50% reduction at the depots where they used this technique.

The problem is that we allow far too much bad behaviour on the roads, and the "censure is too lenient and we need to start clamping down. When any offence is committed, remove the licence until pyschometric testing has taken place and then reinstate with remedial training as a requirement. Any further offences should then be considered as "aggravated" as the offender has been made aware of their poor driving and shown that they are unwilling or unable to mend their ways.

Eventually the decision may be made that some drivers are simply mentally unsuitable to drive - but we know enough of those already.
kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

Cunobelin wrote:Eventually the decision may be made that some drivers are simply mentally unsuitable to drive - but we know enough of those already.

All well and good, but aren't these the very same people who are currently driving around without insurance, license, tax, mot etc. Often with the vehicle registered in the old keepers name or some false name so that there's no comeback for any offences committed and automatically registered?

Then again perhaps they're the bright ones and it's us stupid one's paying through the nose to keep the emergency tin box ready to roll that need our heads seeing to. :wink:
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Cunobelin
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Cunobelin »

kwackers wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Eventually the decision may be made that some drivers are simply mentally unsuitable to drive - but we know enough of those already.

All well and good, but aren't these the very same people who are currently driving around without insurance, license, tax, mot etc. Often with the vehicle registered in the old keepers name or some false name so that there's no comeback for any offences committed and automatically registered?

Then again perhaps they're the bright ones and it's us stupid one's paying through the nose to keep the emergency tin box ready to roll that need our heads seeing to. :wink:


Only because it is worth their while?

Of course we could do what Manchester was pilloried for and using technology to do exactly this. ANPR enables multiple vehicles to be checked and targeted immediately with the offender in custody at the time.

Of course actually effecively implementing the law like this is...

1. "Dangerous" because it diverts these drivers attention from the road to having to look fr the Police vehicles
2. Revenue raising - fining motorist s for these offences is simply taxation
3. Merely another example of the Police persecuting the motorist
4. Forces these motorists to break the law as they

Which really sums the biggest problem... there are too many drivers who simply see that being censured for motoring offences is persecution and too many websites who reinforce this appaling attitude that anything is acceptable on the roads.
kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

Cunobelin wrote:Only because it is worth their while?

Of course we could do what Manchester was pilloried for and using technology to do exactly this. ANPR enables multiple vehicles to be checked and targeted immediately with the offender in custody at the time.

Of course actually effecively implementing the law like this is...

1. "Dangerous" because it diverts these drivers attention from the road to having to look fr the Police vehicles
2. Revenue raising - fining motorist s for these offences is simply taxation
3. Merely another example of the Police persecuting the motorist
4. Forces these motorists to break the law as they

Which really sums the biggest problem... there are too many drivers who simply see that being censured for motoring offences is persecution and too many websites who reinforce this appaling attitude that anything is acceptable on the roads.


ANPR is all well and good - but the scallies already have it sussed - expect to find your number plate missing and fitted to someone else's car. Of course at the moment these incidences are rare - but given the incentive it won't be long before number plates no longer carry the validity you may want. By current reckoning there are about 2 million people out there who would benefit from borrowing someone else's plate.

I'm not convinced either that Manchester was discontinued because of a vocal minority at best I reckon that's an excuse. I reckon road policing was set back because the adoption of speed cameras meant you could move policing away from a relatively expensive 'patrol car + policeman' to a potentially cost neutral (or even positive) automatic system.
In all my years of driving I can't say I've ever come across someone who when tugged for an offence believed they were being 'taxed'. They might argue about the severity of what they'd done but it always smacked of 'fair cop'.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Cunobelin »

kwackers wrote:In all my years of driving I can't say I've ever come across someone who when tugged for an offence believed they were being 'taxed'. They might argue about the severity of what they'd done but it always smacked of 'fair cop'.


You have a gifted life.......... let me introduce you to SafeSpeed a "Road Safety organisation" where it is considered acceptable to trawl obituaries and claim a recently deceased person was driving your car to avoid the consequences of your actions, or to ask elderly relatives to claimthey were driving and accept your points.

HAve you really never heard of the "Association of British drivers whose angle on Mobile phones is "They (the Police) should be telling people how to use their phones safely whilst driving rather than attempting to stop them altogether."

They also claim that drivers are quite safe using phones...."Those for whom the process of safe driving has become second nature are quite capable of using a phone safely whilst driving."!


....and if you want a real example of "its a fair cop, and I have been stupid" stance - have a giggle at the responses to the "Attempts to murder drivers" by installing bollards in Manchester. th driver fails to see a 6 foot flashing neon sign, tries to speed through tailgating another vehicle and gets caughtt out by the bollard ..... no way its their fault though!

As before there is a dangerous underclass who feel that their driving should not be limited in any way.
kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

Cunobelin wrote:<snip>


As I said, a vocal minority. I don't believe most 'ordinary' people believe that - certainly I don't know anyone who thinks driving and using a mobile phone is a good thing - and that includes someone who got fined for just that...

Web sites are great things, you can make it look authoritative even when it's a little bloke in his back room. However to believe they're somehow representative would be a mistake.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Cunobelin »

However there is a real danger when the Clarksonites who really think that they are above average drivers find reinforcement in their over assessment in these sites, and can drive fast, on the phone and not worry about the consequences because Safespeed or the ABD says it is OK to do so
adinigel
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by adinigel »

Cunobelin wrote:The standard of driving instructor speaks for itself.

Now one must wonder if these "skills" and poor attitude are being passed on to their pupils?


Sorry, I have only just followed the link you gave. Probably a bit late now, but did you report this [rude word removed] to the AA? They would have been VERY interested and would definately have investigated it.

Cunobelin wrote:....Where the application of psychometric testing has been used following accidents or speeding offences the number of accidents has been gretly decreased. Arriva claimed a 50% reduction at the depots where they used this technique.....


Is psychometric testing all they did? Or did the testing highlight the more dangerous cases and they then given some sort of defensive driving course? I'm not sure how psychometric testing on it's own would work.

Many companies have shown a significant reduction in costs (accidents, fuel & maintenance) after implementing some sort of driver training. Often the two methods can work in tandem.

Nigel
DSA registered Driving Instructor, RoSPA Diploma in Advanced Car Instruction, SAFED registered van trainer, National Standards Cycling Instructor
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