Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

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Cunobelin
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Cunobelin »

adinigel wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:The standard of driving instructor speaks for itself.

Now one must wonder if these "skills" and poor attitude are being passed on to their pupils?


Sorry, I have only just followed the link you gave. Probably a bit late now, but did you report this <i>[rude word removed]</i> to the AA? They would have been VERY interested and would definately have investigated it.

Cunobelin wrote:....Where the application of psychometric testing has been used following accidents or speeding offences the number of accidents has been gretly decreased. Arriva claimed a 50% reduction at the depots where they used this technique.....


Is psychometric testing all they did? Or did the testing highlight the more dangerous cases and they then given some sort of defensive driving course? I'm not sure how psychometric testing on it's own would work.

Many companies have shown a significant reduction in costs (accidents, fuel & maintenance) after implementing some sort of driver training. Often the two methods can work in tandem.

Nigel



Not my video - it was from a discussion on another forum - the AA were not greatly impressed with their instructor and the publicity it gained

Secondly the testing was two fold, firstly as part of recruitment and secondly following accidents or complaints.

This is why it is such a useful tool as it can identify the risk takers and identify required remedial training. Of course it is always avoided in discussion as it is is uncomfortable for some drivers.

However given the benefits proven from fleet drivers and risks the potential for reduction in the public is immense.

If the figures are anywhere near as successful as in fleet use, testing all speeding, parking, red light and other offences has the potential to reduce accidents and injuries by a large margin.

However note the reluctance to discuss or recognise this potential.
adinigel
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by adinigel »

There are schemes out there for those caught speeding and those causing accidents - Speed Awareness Scheme and the National Driver Improvement Scheme.

Funnily enough, particularly the NDIS, they elicit quite positive comments from the delegates.

Nigel
DSA registered Driving Instructor, RoSPA Diploma in Advanced Car Instruction, SAFED registered van trainer, National Standards Cycling Instructor
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Cunobelin
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by Cunobelin »

adinigel wrote:There are schemes out there for those caught speeding and those causing accidents - Speed Awareness Scheme and the National Driver Improvement Scheme.

Funnily enough, particularly the NDIS, they elicit quite positive comments from the delegates.

Nigel



But are generic...... why not assess each driver and tailor the training to their shortcomings.

Generic courses do not work for all drivers ..... especially when you see the ones who claim they are safer to speed following the courses!
adinigel
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by adinigel »

Some of the SAS and all of the NDIS courses do recognise that and have an on-road element where the trainer should be addressing the individual needs of the delegates.

Nigel
DSA registered Driving Instructor, RoSPA Diploma in Advanced Car Instruction, SAFED registered van trainer, National Standards Cycling Instructor
AndyK
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by AndyK »

Meanwhile, back on topic...

The Legal Services team at Bournemouth Borough Council replied to my FOI request today, and included a scan of the relevant byelaws. I've just tried to upload the byelaws document, but I get an error saying "The extension pdf is not allowed." Can a moderator help me here?

The Byelaws came into effect in July 1986. The relevant sections are:
12. VEHICLES ETC.
(1) A person shall not, except in pursuance of a lawful agreement with the Council or otherwise in the exercise of any lawful right or privilege, bring or cause to be brought onto the Seashore, Promenades or Cliffs any barrow, truck, machine or motorised or other vehicle other than:-

  • (a) a wheeled bicycle, tricycle or other similar machine;
  • (b) a wheelchair or perambulator [...snip stuff about prams and wheelchairs, and about vehicle access to certain places]
(2) A person shall not, except in pursuance of a lawful agreement with the Council or otherwise in the exercise of any lawful right or privilege, ride any bicycle, tricycle or other similar machine on any part of the Seashore, Promenades or Cliffs.

[...]

16. PENALTY
Any person who shall offend against any of the foregoing Byelaws shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £100.

So... As of 1986, you were allowed to "bring" a bike onto the Prom, but not ride it. At all.
But the plot thickens. The covering email from the council adds the following snippets:
...Additionally, it would also be worth mentioning that restrictions for cycling along the promenade were introduced following a cabinet decision in February 2000, where cycling was restricted from 10am to 5pm during the period May to September. A subsequent cabinet decision was made in 2005 to revise the restrictions from 10am to 6pm during the period July to August.
If found to be cycling during these restricted times, cyclists can face a fine of up to £1,000. Whilst there is an advisory speed limit of 10mph in place, Council officers can only advise and educate cyclists about this speed.

So this confirms that the speed limit is only advisory and you can't be fined for exceeding it - but I'm puzzled by the rest of it. I can see how the Cabinet can decide to allow bikes onto the Prom at certain times (effectively a blanket "lawful agreement" with cyclists). But I don't see how they can arbitrarily raise the fine for offences from £100 to £1000. The Byelaws don't give them the authority to change that. I've asked for clarification of these points.

Note that the Byelaws and email extract are copyright Bournemouth Council, but the email gives me permission to re-use the text for non-commercial purposes.
thirdcrank
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by thirdcrank »

AndyK

Thanks for going to the trouble of researching this and posting it.

I've no knowledge of the place in question and I do not anticipate ever going there so I'm not qualified to comment on whether the place is suitable for cycling and if so, at what speed. The point is that there is no enfoceable speed limit. I have to say that the involvement of a police officer complete with a speed gun in this charade would be laughable if it were not for the fact that police manpower is not a free or unlimited resource. I'm ashamed to say this is one case where it would be reasonable to ask "Have you nothing better to do?"

If the local authority thinks there is a problem with cycling they first need to get their bye-law straight.

PS Speedos on bikes, unless the rider is going swimming, are nothing to do with it. IMO, if somebody does want to advise cyclists that they are being inconsiderate, a camcorder would do the job better than a speed camera.
AndyK
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by AndyK »

The great thing about Freedom of Information is that the only research you have to do is to find the form on the council's website and write the request. A couple of minutes' work. I recommend it. :-)

(On the other hand, my day job is at a council so I see first-hand how much staff time gets diverted into dealing with FOI requests. Use wisely, folks.)
thirdcrank
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by thirdcrank »

FWIW I think local byelaws are generally available for inspection at least by anybody who turns up at the Town Hall etc and asks. Although ignorance of the law is no excuse, the law can hardly be kept secret.

Incidentally, no 'judicial notice' is taken of byelaws so they must be 'proved' by the prosecution. This means in prctice that a properly certified version must be available in court. It is a so-called 'loophole' defence if this is not done. Best left to a solicitor and even better avoided by not breaking the law.
AndyK
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by AndyK »

thirdcrank wrote:FWIW I think local byelaws are generally available for inspection at least by anybody who turns up at the Town Hall etc and asks. Although ignorance of the law is no excuse, the law can hardly be kept secret.


True, but that would have meant taking half a day off work to go during office hours! Personally I think all byelaws should be available for inspection on a council's website, but this is still very rare.
rjb
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by rjb »

Has anyone mentioned that some speed guns employ a laser which if you look at the instructions say do not point at peoples eyes! Very difficult not to do this when pointing it at an approaching cyclist. Perhaps the operators assume we all wear glasses!
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin, Raleigh 20, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Longstaff trike conversion on a Falcon corsa. :D
kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

rjb wrote:Has anyone mentioned that some speed guns employ a laser which if you look at the instructions say do not point at peoples eyes! Very difficult not to do this when pointing it at an approaching cyclist. Perhaps the operators assume we all wear glasses!


Wouldn't worry too much, at the distances they target you the spread is quite a lot plus it'd be an impressive feat to keep the laser trained on your eye for any amount of time at all - the military spend a small fortune on research to do just that sort of thing...
steve_m
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by steve_m »

kwackers wrote:
rjb wrote:Has anyone mentioned that some speed guns employ a laser which if you look at the instructions say do not point at peoples eyes! Very difficult not to do this when pointing it at an approaching cyclist. Perhaps the operators assume we all wear glasses!


Wouldn't worry too much, at the distances they target you the spread is quite a lot plus it'd be an impressive feat to keep the laser trained on your eye for any amount of time at all - the military spend a small fortune on research to do just that sort of thing...


In that case targetting an aircraft at thousands to tens of thousands of feet up, possibly several miles away, must be very hard, so hard no one worries about it? Except they do, enough to design and build equipment to locate laser pens:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7990013.stm

I wonder how the output power compares to standard laser pointers?
kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

steve_m wrote:
kwackers wrote:Wouldn't worry too much, at the distances they target you the spread is quite a lot plus it'd be an impressive feat to keep the laser trained on your eye for any amount of time at all - the military spend a small fortune on research to do just that sort of thing...


In that case targetting an aircraft at thousands to tens of thousands of feet up, possibly several miles away, must be very hard, so hard no one worries about it? Except they do, enough to design and build equipment to locate laser pens:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7990013.stm

I wonder how the output power compares to standard laser pointers?


I use a green laser for astronomy - compared to red they're incredibly bright (the eye is much more sensitive to the green frequencies). The problem is firstly that very powerful green lasers are cheaply available (powerful enough to set fire to things) and secondly that it's bright enough so that even the 'scatter' you get from the light hitting the perspex of the cockpit is enough to blind a pilot (bearing in mind these are night attacks when it's pretty dark and the pilots eyes have adjusted for the conditions).

In contrast damaging someone's retina at anything more than a few feet requires time, a steady hand and target especially at the low powers these (police speed) lasers use.
reohn2
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by reohn2 »

We very often ride along Morcambe prom on the tandem,we'd never go over 10mph and always give way to pedestrians.
It seems the right thing to do when on a shared busy promenade,we all have to get long together whatever we drive ride and when I read of people who don't seem to get that I get frustrated,when I read of people who consider themselves responsible cyclists ranting about how they will ride at 20mph+ on such paths I think about motorists who think cyclists shouldn't be on the road.Then I think selfish gits.
May be if a little respect was shown by cyclists to other promenade users the "between 10am and 5pm" ban on cyclists would be lifted but it seems obvious that the authorities could using their own bye laws ban cyclists altogether something the selfish cyclists need to consider.
When on the continent shared paths are common place in towns,cities and promenades you'll never see a wreckless cyclist,that may be because they have selfrespect,respect for others and more manners than do such things,in the same way car drives on the continent don't lean out of windows and gesticulate and shout at each other at every given opportunity they repect the fact that there are other people to consider than themselves.

rant just begining.
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kwackers
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Re: Bournemouth Speeding Checks Arghhhhhh!

Post by kwackers »

reohn2 wrote:We very often ride along Morcambe prom on the tandem,we'd never go over 10mph and always give way to pedestrians.
It seems the right thing to do when on a shared busy promenade,we all have to get long together whatever we drive ride and when I read of people who don't seem to get that I get frustrated,when I read of people who consider themselves responsible cyclists ranting about how they will ride at 20mph+ on such paths I think about motorists who think cyclists shouldn't be on the road.Then I think selfish gits.
May be if a little respect was shown by cyclists to other promenade users the "between 10am and 5pm" ban on cyclists would be lifted but it seems obvious that the authorities could using their own bye laws ban cyclists altogether something the selfish cyclists need to consider.
When on the continent shared paths are common place in towns,cities and promenades you'll never see a wreckless cyclist,that may be because they have selfrespect,respect for others and more manners than do such things,in the same way car drives on the continent don't lean out of windows and gesticulate and shout at each other at every given opportunity they repect the fact that there are other people to consider than themselves.

rant just begining.

Interestingly the most outrageous bit of cycling I've ever seen were two cyclists on road bikes absolutely thrashing along down a narrow crowded 'shared' space - I reckon they were not far off doing 40mph.
This was in Amsterdam... Mind you they could have been brits over for their hols. :wink:
Didn't see any other riding over there I'd consider to be inconsiderate - mind you I don't see much near me either (unless you count mums/dads with kids in tow tootling along the footpaths).
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