Police car chase...

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adinigel
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Re: Police car chase...

Post by adinigel »

My only concern wit this incident is the "None of your business" quote. It most certainly is the business of the general public. Correct training methods but a very poor attitude from the Police when asked about it!

Nigel
DSA registered Driving Instructor, RoSPA Diploma in Advanced Car Instruction, SAFED registered van trainer, National Standards Cycling Instructor
random37
Posts: 1952
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 4:41pm

Re: Police car chase...

Post by random37 »

Yeah, but with any organisation that size you're bound to find a couple of idiots.
Despite the slating they get in the press, I think the police in this country are brilliant.
Anyone who doesn't think so should try living in a country where criticising the police gets you arrested.
Ivor Tingting
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009, 9:57pm

Re: Police car chase...

Post by Ivor Tingting »

chris667 wrote:Anyone who doesn't think so should try living in a country where criticising the police gets you arrested.


Sadly I think you'll find it is the case that here in the UK people who have not been breaking the law have found themselves being harassed, arrested, falsely imprisoned, beaten or killed.

Are you a copper?
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.
Ivor Tingting
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009, 9:57pm

Re: Police car chase...

Post by Ivor Tingting »

kwackers wrote:I'm only aware of one incident where someone was killed in a training exercise. If you believe police should occasionally take part in pursuits of the bad guys then I guess you should expect them to train on the actual roads.

Don't know about anyone else, but I don't think I'd be too happy if pursuit training was either on a wide flat airfield or only happened during actual pursuits. Given the speeds they drive at through towns and villages I'm happier in the knowledge that they've practised many times in controlled conditions - so they *know* when it's getting too dangerous and call it off, or so they *know* how to bring it to a halt safely.


Or are they in pursuit to get on Police, Camera, Action; Police Interceptors; Road Wars :lol: ?
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.
kwackers
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Location: Warrington

Re: Police car chase...

Post by kwackers »

Ivor Tingting wrote:Or are they in pursuit to get on Police, Camera, Action; Police Interceptors; Road Wars :lol: ?

That is my ultimate aim, chased on my bicycle across several counties - avoiding stingers, road traps, helicopters etc before finally taking off my hi-vis jacket to reveal my secret weapon - black. At which point I'll simply vanish into the urban environment...
random37
Posts: 1952
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 4:41pm

Re: Police car chase...

Post by random37 »

Ivor Tingting wrote:Sadly I think you'll find it is the case that here in the UK people who have not been breaking the law have found themselves being harassed, arrested, falsely imprisoned, beaten or killed.

Are you a copper?

I'm not in the police, just someone that recognises they have a nigh on impossible job.

When I was 16 I moved from Henley on Thames to a very rough bit of South London, and enrolled on what was then called YTS. Part of this was spending one day a week at a college in Peckham. I used to go outside to smoke, and everyone there used to shout at the "pigs" as they drove past. Yet if one of them was mugged, or ended up being beaten up who do you think the first people they'll call are? The police.

I'm not denying there aren't bent, unpleasant police officers out there. In any organisation of that size, there's bound to be the odd bad 'un. But if you think our police are all corrupt and routinely break the rules, you obviously have a very narrow world view. There's a lot of countries where people with different views to the police just disappear, and before you start making statements like the one you just have you should compare us to them.
Tonyf33
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Re: Police car chase...

Post by Tonyf33 »

Perfectly legitimate & wholly necessary exersize. The police would expect joe public to react as if it WAS an actual real life pursuit moving over/out the way or slowing down etc when seeing flashing lights or hearing sirens. To suggest that they should have forewarned the public is ludicrous & downright dangerous.
Only problem is the silly WPC who made all the wrong noises, I'm guessing that the real press officer for the police is having kittens after hearing that. Totally the wrong comment to make, a simple statement about maintaining high standards of training for real life situtations, risk assessments taken into account blah blah blah would have sufficed.
Sometimes the public just want to be in the limelight of their local rags.
Ivor Tingting
Posts: 856
Joined: 10 Mar 2009, 9:57pm

Re: Police car chase...

Post by Ivor Tingting »

kwackers wrote:
Ivor Tingting wrote:Or are they in pursuit to get on Police, Camera, Action; Police Interceptors; Road Wars :lol: ?

That is my ultimate aim, chased on my bicycle across several counties - avoiding stingers, road traps, helicopters etc before finally taking off my hi-vis jacket to reveal my secret weapon - black. At which point I'll simply vanish into the urban environment...


Good luck. I shall now watch in anticipation. But I don't think you will escape the eye in the sky thermal imaging camera even if in black. They always seem get their quarry which is so not like how it usually happens.
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.
Ivor Tingting
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009, 9:57pm

Re: Police car chase...

Post by Ivor Tingting »

chris667 wrote:
Ivor Tingting wrote:Sadly I think you'll find it is the case that here in the UK people who have not been breaking the law have found themselves being harassed, arrested, falsely imprisoned, beaten or killed.

Are you a copper?

I'm not in the police, just someone that recognises they have a nigh on impossible job.

When I was 16 I moved from Henley on Thames to a very rough bit of South London, and enrolled on what was then called YTS. Part of this was spending one day a week at a college in Peckham. I used to go outside to smoke, and everyone there used to shout at the "pigs" as they drove past. Yet if one of them was mugged, or ended up being beaten up who do you think the first people they'll call are? The police.

I'm not denying there aren't bent, unpleasant police officers out there. In any organisation of that size, there's bound to be the odd bad 'un. But if you think our police are all corrupt and routinely break the rules, you obviously have a very narrow world view. There's a lot of countries where people with different views to the police just disappear, and before you start making statements like the one you just have you should compare us to them.


Rough area Peckham and down in Deptford. There used to be one murder every week there in the '80s.
I don't dispute the police have a hard job but rather than a few bad apples I think there might be a few trees in their huge orchard of an organisation. Many coppers don't even understand the law the right to peaceful protest being an example. I don't have a narrow world view having travelled much of it. I have seen enough of corrupt authority to see when the best interests of society are not being served. So what country(ies) are you thinking of comparing against the UK? You should compare like with like liberal democracies. It is shocking that a democartic country such as the UK still has a number coppers in it's police service who feel they are above or outside the law or are alternatively feel almost ambivalent to it only enforcing certain parts that suit their own agenda.
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.
random37
Posts: 1952
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 4:41pm

Re: Police car chase...

Post by random37 »

Ivor Tingting wrote:
chris667 wrote:
Rough area Peckham and down in Deptford. There used to be one murder every week there in the '80s.
I don't dispute the police have a hard job but rather than a few bad apples I think there might be a few trees in their huge orchard of an organisation. Many coppers don't even understand the law the right to peaceful protest being an example. I don't have a narrow world view having travelled much of it. I have seen enough of corrupt authority to see when the best interests of society are not being served. So what country(ies) are you thinking of comparing against the UK? You should compare like with like liberal democracies. It is shocking that a democartic country such as the UK still has a number coppers in it's police service who feel they are above or outside the law or are alternatively feel almost ambivalent to it only enforcing certain parts that suit their own agenda.


This is nonsense. Out of everything the police do, dealing with criminals, people that "know their rights", every bit of stick people give them, the number of actual incidents is tiny. You never hear about the times when they get things right because that doesn't make good copy.

Strikes me you have have a grievance with them you haven't told us about.
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EdinburghFixed
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Re: Police car chase...

Post by EdinburghFixed »

chris667 wrote:This is nonsense. Out of everything the police do, dealing with criminals, people that "know their rights", every bit of stick people give them, the number of actual incidents is tiny. You never hear about the times when they get things right because that doesn't make good copy.


I agree- it's much better than it could be, but that doesn't make it perfect.

I was threatened with arrest recently (on a Sunday morning in Edinburgh!) because I wanted to take my bike - NOT ride it, just take it - up the road to the marathon finish line. The road was closed in my direction and the officer ordered me to cycle for miles around the giant one-way triangle they'd arranged in the east Lothian countryside.

I said, "no, I'll just go up here", and eventually the fatal words "there's no law against it" (which there isn't), at which point he threatened to put me in the meat wagon. I decided it wasn't worth risking some random charge (obstructing an officer? antisocial behaviour?) so I backed off for a couple of minutes until he was looking the other way.

But ultimately, if I had gone on to see a crime that afternoon (or be involved in one somehow) I would have been very unlikely to come forward with the information. I worry that there's a bit of a disconnect between what the "public servants" the police are supposed to be, and however it is many of them perceive themselves, and that this divide only erodes the respect of the law itself.

I mean normally, I like to think of myself as a model citizen when it comes to the law and cooperating with the authorities. It makes me uncomfortable that I ended up feeling like I could "get back" at the police by withholding info on the many fantasy crimes that I might have witnessed :roll:
thirdcrank
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Re: Police car chase...

Post by thirdcrank »

EdinburghFixed wrote:... I was threatened with arrest recently (on a Sunday morning in Edinburgh!) because I wanted to take my bike - NOT ride it, just take it - up the road to the marathon finish line. The road was closed in my direction and the officer ordered me to cycle for miles around the giant one-way triangle they'd arranged in the east Lothian countryside.

I said, "no, I'll just go up here", and eventually the fatal words "there's no law against it" (which there isn't), at which point he threatened to put me in the meat wagon. I decided it wasn't worth risking some random charge (obstructing an officer? antisocial behaviour?) so I backed off for a couple of minutes until he was looking the other way. ...


I can't speak for Scotland (as I repeatedly point out) but in England and Wales it is accepted that the police have a duty to 'direct traffic' which includes pedestrians and certainly people driving vehicles which includes pedal cycles. When police powers of arrest were fundamentally reviewed for the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, obstructing the highway was one of the few summary matters where the power was preserved.

Obviously, individual officers have no power to direct people here or there capriciously, but when a major planning exercise of the type you describe has been implemented, it's not been done at the whim of some individual dolt you despise. I'd be the first to agree with you that arrangements of this type often fail to take into account the needs of cyclists (ironically, I've been thoroughly messed about in Leeds by temporary detours designed to facilitate cycling events) but to ascribe this to the whim of some power-hungry constable is wide of the mark. If you do raise two fingers, real or metaphorical at that stage, you may experience the 'Make my day sucker' attitude but I have to say that in situations like this you cannot have individual amateur lawyers (even real ones) deciding the boundaries. (As an aside, on a number of occasions when out cycling, I've come across something like a bad accident or a fire where the road has been closed and the emergency detour has been miles around. I have never had the circumstances where politely offering to walk carefully by, carrying my bike if necessary has not been accepted by the police there. Several years ago a police community support officer - obviously desperate to follow the last instruction - was persistent in saying I should ride some 10 - 15 miles to avoid the scene of an accident but a police constable arrived and told him a cyclist on foot would be no problem. This isn't the same as a planned event where everything is supposed to have been thought out.)

I can understand how you feel when your feathers have been ruffled but if your attitude to upholding the law is dependent on getting your own way when it affects you, it seems a bit disappointing to me. (It's the sort of thing you tend to hear from people caught by speed cameras.)

I've probably mentioned on here that one of the precedents for my interpretation of the law on this was made by Lord Denning, Master of the Rolls (therefore a civil case.) Following a terrorist bombing in a pub in Birmingham in the 1970's a constable directed the driver of a motor car to reverse along a one-way street to make way for an emergency ambulance. The driver refused and was arrested. His case was that the police had no power to direct him to reverse 'illegally.' Lord Denning told him not to be so silly (but being the Master of the Rolls he made it sound a lot more exciting.)
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