Cyclist jailed.

[Robzere31]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/8197430.stm

Jailed for 7 months & banned from driving

[groberts]

I am no lawyer and this guy looks like he was 'guilty' in some way or another (even if they needed a law from 1861 to charge him!), however, once again this looks like double standards to me. With increasing regularity I see news of cyclsts getting killed or seriously injured (just see previous the previous post - Run Over) through no fault of their own and the driver gets a slap across the wrist (e.g. few points deducted and suspended sentence or even nothing). Where is the justice in this?

[thirdcrank]

For some reason, the legislators in 1861 were very busy passing the Larceny Act, Malicious Damage Act and Offences Against the Person Act. The first two survived many years and the Offences Against the Person Act is still largely there today. "GBH" is still there in sections 18 and 20 and actual bodily harm in s 47 and these offences are frequently charged. The Victorian legislators always had plenty of different sections for every conceivable offence. I'll bet it's a while since anybody fell foul of s 26 - Not providing apprentices or servants with food etc whereby life is endangered.

I think groberts has a good point - those sections of the Road Traffic Act dealing with causing death or injury through driving a motor vehicle were devised to separate it from offences founded on personal violence. Somebody has clearly decided that the punishment available for careless cycling etc embodied in the same Road Traffic Acts is inadequate so they've looked around for something carrying more. IMO this is the sort of thing the creation of the CPS was supposed to eliminate.

I've no idea how this charge attracted disqualification from driving - presumably it's an offence on some schedule of what you can lose your licence for. Perhaps more detailed reports will emerge - or somebody else may know.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Edited to add: I omitted the link to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861.

http://opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts ... 10100_en_1

This was s 35 - Drivers of carriages injuring persons by furious driving

[pete75]

It was introduced in the Criminal Courts Act 2000. Apparently all courts now have the power to impose a driving ban as part of the sentence for any criminal offence.

[thirdcrank]

It was introduced in the Criminal Courts Act 2000. Apparently all courts now have the power to impose a driving ban as part of the sentence for any criminal offence.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/uk ... pb2-l1g146

There it is - s 146, qualified only be the need for the court having been notofied by the Secretary of State that the power is available.

[essexman]

7 months isnt enough. I'm personally glad to see a jail sentence handed out for this. One hopes it might start to be more common for drivers of other vehicles who kill.

[EdinburghFixed]

I think that 7 months (i.e. out in 14 weeks, less any time already spent on remand) is too light for recklessly causing a death - but I think that's true whether it's performed by a cyclist or a motorist.

When you consider that a driver who recklessly kills a pedestrian or cyclist will often get just 3-6 points and a wee fine (if the CPS even proceeds at all), it is a sad reflection on our society that cyclists get so much more. Hard evidence of our status as an 'out group', even to the bench...

[AlanD]

I think I missed something here.
I have no problem with a prison sentence, but what's the connection between an offence committed on a bicycle and a driving ban?

[-walsh-]

I was wondering the same thing Alan. strange. Unless its to get him off the road.If hes like that on a bike whats he like in a car?

[gilesjuk]

Simple, there's no licence for cycling so they have to ban him from driving too. They've deemed him incapable of controlling a moving vehicle.

What next? ban him from running?

The speed he was doing isn't relevant, he was on the pavement and that's illegal to start with (unless there was a cycle lane on it).

[spen666]

It was introduced in the Criminal Courts Act 2000. Apparently all courts now have the power to impose a driving ban as part of the sentence for any criminal offence.

Not quite correct

This particular offence carries a discretionary disqualification

My understanding is this is the power the judge used, not the POCA 2000 power.

Its a strange piece of legislation, allowing a discretiaonary disqualification for driver or cyclists

AND an obligatory endorsement of 3-9 points for motorists ONLY

[spen666]

I think that 7 months (i.e. out in 14 weeks, less any time already spent on remand) is too light for recklessly causing a death - but I think that's true whether it's performed by a cyclist or a motorist.

When you consider that a driver who recklessly kills a pedestrian or cyclist will often get just 3-6 points and a wee fine (if the CPS even proceeds at all), it is a sad reflection on our society that cyclists get so much more. Hard evidence of our status as an 'out group', even to the bench...

You are letting your self interest cloud your judgement

A motorist convicted of causing death by careless or dangerous driving ( 2 seperate offences!) will receive a prison sentence far longer than 7 months . [ Note powers of punishment have been increased recently as there never used to be an offence of death by careless driving, so if dangerous driving could not be proven, then then only a simple non imprisonable offence of careless driving was available to prosecutors

[Phil_Lee]

I think that 7 months (i.e. out in 14 weeks, less any time already spent on remand) is too light for recklessly causing a death - but I think that's true whether it's performed by a cyclist or a motorist.

When you consider that a driver who recklessly kills a pedestrian or cyclist will often get just 3-6 points and a wee fine (if the CPS even proceeds at all), it is a sad reflection on our society that cyclists get so much more. Hard evidence of our status as an 'out group', even to the bench...

You are letting your self interest cloud your judgement

A motorist convicted of causing death by careless or dangerous driving ( 2 seperate offences!) will receive a prison sentence far longer than 7 months . [ Note powers of punishment have been increased recently as there never used to be an offence of death by careless driving, so if dangerous driving could not be proven, then then only a simple non imprisonable offence of careless driving was available to prosecutors

Rubbish - Manslaughter has ALWAYS been available to prosecute killer motorists.
The new offences have had the effect of reducing penalties, not increasing them.
But how many killer drivers are actually even charged with the offences that attract those higher penalties?
I think every single case of a cyclist killing someone has attracted harsh penalties, and that is the significant difference.

I'm by no means defending the cyclist, but it's an atrocity that motorists don't get penalised as heavily (indeed, as custodians of far more dangerous machinery, they should if anything be sentenced MORE heavily for failure to control it adequately).
A disgraceful number never get charged with anything, which is tantamount to complicity.

If drivers KNEW that killing someone would guarantee a jail sentence and a life ban, they'd be a damned sight more careful.
As it is, they regard it as unlucky and victimised if they even lose their licence temporarily.
THAT is an obscenity.

[EdinburghFixed]

I think that 7 months (i.e. out in 14 weeks, less any time already spent on remand) is too light for recklessly causing a death - but I think that's true whether it's performed by a cyclist or a motorist.

When you consider that a driver who recklessly kills a pedestrian or cyclist will often get just 3-6 points and a wee fine (if the CPS even proceeds at all), it is a sad reflection on our society that cyclists get so much more. Hard evidence of our status as an 'out group', even to the bench...

You are letting your self interest cloud your judgement

A motorist convicted of causing death by careless or dangerous driving ( 2 seperate offences!) will receive a prison sentence far longer than 7 months . [ Note powers of punishment have been increased recently as there never used to be an offence of death by careless driving, so if dangerous driving could not be proven, then then only a simple non imprisonable offence of careless driving was available to prosecutors

If only all motorists who kill behind the wheel were prosecuted, and prosecuted for those offences, then I might agree with you. But while *some* motorists must receive a prison sentence longer than 7 months, I'm struggling to think of many!

For example, when Jason MacIntyre was killed by a driver who turned right into him on an open main road, the driver ended up with £500 and a six month suspension.

Marie Vasco was rammed on a perfectly fine day by a driver who overtook her indicating left, and the driver tailgating the first one - neither were prosecuted.

In a recent discussion we heard about a pedestrian who was killed while crossing the road in a normal streetlit setting, but the driver was not prosecuted "because it was dark" (!)

A doctor in Bedford who killed a cyclist on a mini roundabout got £2000 and points (i.e. no ban).

A truck driver who turned left onto a cyclist was prosecuted only for careless driving (not causing death by) but was acquitted.

I could go on all night. But the point is very much that *in fact* motorists receive very light punishment - if prosecuted at all - compared with cyclists. I think that when a life is taken (by either cyclist or driver) that we should have a vastly more serious penalty.

[spen666]

I think that 7 months (i.e. out in 14 weeks, less any time already spent on remand) is too light for recklessly causing a death - but I think that's true whether it's performed by a cyclist or a motorist.

When you consider that a driver who recklessly kills a pedestrian or cyclist will often get just 3-6 points and a wee fine (if the CPS even proceeds at all), it is a sad reflection on our society that cyclists get so much more. Hard evidence of our status as an 'out group', even to the bench...

You are letting your self interest cloud your judgement

A motorist convicted of causing death by careless or dangerous driving ( 2 seperate offences!) will receive a prison sentence far longer than 7 months . [ Note powers of punishment have been increased recently as there never used to be an offence of death by careless driving, so if dangerous driving could not be proven, then then only a simple non imprisonable offence of careless driving was available to prosecutors

Rubbish - Manslaughter has ALWAYS been available to prosecute killer motorists.

It is still available, the problem is proving manslaughter. It is an incredibly difficult offence to prove in the context of using a motor vehicle as it is ALMOST impossible to prove the necessary mens rea ( mental element). I suggest you go and have a read of some jurisprudence aon this topic.

The new offences have had the effect of reducing penalties, not increasing them.

Yes - you are right- creating a new offence of death by careless driving with a maximum penalty of 5 years imprisonment to replace the situation where someone who killed by careless driving could only be punished by the non imprisonable offence of simple careless driving is reducing the maximum penalty isn't it?

Changing the maximum penalty for death by dangerous driving from 5 years to 10 years and then to 14 years is also reducing the penalty isn't it? Clearly anyone with the slightest understanding of maths can see that 114 years is more not less than 5 years.

But how many killer drivers are actually even charged with the offences that attract those higher penalties?

I think every single case of a cyclist killing someone has attracted harsh penalties, and that is the significant difference.

So how many cyclists have received harsh penalties? The only other cyclist prosecuted in relation to an accident that caused someone's death received a fine.
Again you are letting your cyclist mentality blind you from the reality.

Where offenders in motor vehicles are convicted of serious offences, the do receive custodial sentences.

You are confusing convictions and punishment. You cannot be punished for causing someone's death by dangerous driving, manslaughter etc if you are not convicted of the relevant offence

I'm by no means defending the cyclist, but it's an atrocity that motorists don't get penalised as heavily (indeed, as custodians of far more dangerous machinery, they should if anything be sentenced MORE heavily for failure to control it adequately).
A disgraceful number never get charged with anything, which is tantamount to complicity.

Alternatively in this country you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. That means proof to the legal standard of beyond all reasonabvle doubt, not proof because an irate cyclist thinks you should be locked up.

If drivers KNEW that killing someone would guarantee a jail sentence and a life ban, they'd be a damned sight more careful.
As it is, they regard it as unlucky and victimised if they even lose their licence temporarily.
THAT is an obscenity.

Being convicted of killing someone through Careless driving or dangerous driving does almost certainly guarantee a jail sentence, but hey, its only the truth, so why worry about it when it doesn't fit your rant