Worst youtube clip i've seen...

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tatanab
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby tatanab » 4 Mar 2010, 7:09pm

I don't understand the desire to video a ride "just in case something happens". So I get the idea that those who do are paranoid and possibly lacking skill. Not a personal attack, just a comment about the regularity some people post such incidents on the various websites.

HOWEVER - taking this specific case - in the run up to the roundabout I thought the observations were fine. Each turning was checked, just as they ask you to do on a driving lesson, and peripheral vision would include at least a partial rear check. Positioning on the roundabout was fine as well, especially bearing in mind he was taking the third exit at about 1 o'clock. I would probably have taken a glance to the left as well, which might have given more warning. It is pretty certain that I would have heard the tanker - but I was not there so cannot say for sure.

So well done in avoiding the collision. The tanker driver would not have had a leg to stand on. I have 40 years cycling experience and have taken some IAM motorcycle and car training so hope I am fairly well rounded in experience. Oh yes, my cycling style tends to the "assertive" style although not overtly aggressive. By assertive I mean only that if I need space I will claim it, but if the motorist is too ignorant to recognise what is happening then I can always give some back.

I have had a fairly similar incident at a T junction, and the same might apply in this case. The driver came to the junction - looked right - clear - looked left - also clear - looked right and pulled out never once scanning the road straight in front or nearly in front.

kwackers
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby kwackers » 4 Mar 2010, 7:20pm

tatanab wrote:I don't understand the desire to video a ride "just in case something happens". So I get the idea that those who do are paranoid and possibly lacking skill. Not a personal attack, just a comment about the regularity some people post such incidents on the various websites.

Ride enough and someone will do something stupid. Video it and you can make damn sure if there's a price to pay someone will pay it.
More importantly, there nothing like thinking you're being watched to improve peoples behaviour - quite often a tap towards the camera and a wink work wonders.
If motorists thought all cyclists were videoing then I reckon they'd behave a lot better around them.

Nothing to do with skill or paranoia.

tatanab
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby tatanab » 4 Mar 2010, 7:35pm

kwackers wrote:Ride enough and someone will do something stupid. Video it and you can make damn sure if there's a price to pay someone will pay it.

Again, no personal digs because we all do things differently. I do ride "enough". I have had some incidents of course, but do you want to film every second of every ride "just in case"? How do you cope with a few weeks on tour? Or are there specific times when you feel vulnerable? Do you wear a camera when entering a dodgy pub for example - ok I know that is being silly. Have motorists started recording their trips because somebody will do something stupid? I think it will be a sad state of affairs if recording becomes the norm - just in case.

I find the frequency of events for me, ignoring closer than ideal passes, I have something to grumble to myself about maybe every 1000 miles, something which I might shout about maybe every 5000 miles, and something I really want to make a fuss about - - too seldom to recall. Need for evidence other than witness statements etc - never, and I hope that will always be the case.

kwackers wrote: quite often a tap towards the camera and a wink work wonders.

Would not work with me or many people I know because because I would not recognise it as a camera.

downfader
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby downfader » 4 Mar 2010, 8:30pm

tatanab wrote:
kwackers wrote:Ride enough and someone will do something stupid. Video it and you can make damn sure if there's a price to pay someone will pay it.

Again, no personal digs because we all do things differently. I do ride "enough". I have had some incidents of course, but do you want to film every second of every ride "just in case"? How do you cope with a few weeks on tour? Or are there specific times when you feel vulnerable? Do you wear a camera when entering a dodgy pub for example - ok I know that is being silly. Have motorists started recording their trips because somebody will do something stupid? I think it will be a sad state of affairs if recording becomes the norm - just in case.

I find the frequency of events for me, ignoring closer than ideal passes, I have something to grumble to myself about maybe every 1000 miles, something which I might shout about maybe every 5000 miles, and something I really want to make a fuss about - - too seldom to recall. Need for evidence other than witness statements etc - never, and I hope that will always be the case.

kwackers wrote: quite often a tap towards the camera and a wink work wonders.

Would not work with me or many people I know because because I would not recognise it as a camera.


Think of recording as an insurance policy for the insurance policy. If you've ever been in a situation where you've been clipped and tried to report it (and a fair number of us have) and found the official response somewaht lack lustre without witnesses and evidence to prove your word against theirs.... well then you get the picture. Cameras can also provide their own problems as evidence too.

I really dont think distance is that important, locality and riding style and time of day also come into it. We all have different situations and its making the best of that, that matters.

I have had other cyclists think my cam is a headlight or torch tbh. Discussions on it at the work cycle sheds have always been positive, even with close driving-coleages.

Actually just remembered.. there are a fair few drivers using cams already. Some insurance companies have speculated that they would like to see them in all cars to protect their clients too. I can see this as a "black box" in a lot of future cars in 10-15 years time

kwackers
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby kwackers » 4 Mar 2010, 8:38pm

tatanab wrote:Again, no personal digs because we all do things differently. I do ride "enough". I have had some incidents of course, but do you want to film every second of every ride "just in case"? How do you cope with a few weeks on tour? Or are there

Never said you didn't.
Weeks on tour? Don't do them - sorry. All my riding is peak time commuting - a period which I'm sure we're all aware is much dodgier in terms of traffic behaviour than a gentle non-peak ride in the countryside.

I just wish I had a camera when a bus overtook me whilst I was behind a car and then with nowhere to go simply moved back over to the kerb forcing me off the road. You can be pretty sure I would have with some glee been straight round to his depot with the footage.
For incidents like that - yes I'd happily film every moment because the more people like that we get off the road the safer we'll all be. (No need to thank me).

Do you wear a camera when entering a dodgy pub for example - ok I know that is being silly. Have motorists started recording their trips because somebody will do something stupid?

Indeed motorists have started recording trips - there are several purpose built units you can buy that fit behind the rear view mirror. I think you need to get used to it, quite a few cars now come with cameras - presumably they either already do or will shortly start 'keeping' footage. Cameras are getting smaller and more disposable, memory is getting larger and cheaper. Won't be long before cameras are tiny, unobtrusive and fit-n-forget. Handy for dodgy pubs and the like.

kwackers wrote: quite often a tap towards the camera and a wink work wonders.

Would not work with me or many people I know because because I would not recognise it as a camera.

It works so well that you can even do it by pretending your front light is a camera (at least mine because it's tubular). People always assume the worse.

Just to throw a spanner in the works - I don't actually tape my journey, I can't be bothered - two hours of cycling each day makes the effort of re-charging batteries and erasing memory cards a chore I can't be bothered with.
However when someone does bring out the fit and forget (dynamo charged?) looping camera then I'll fasten two to the bike - one facing forwards and one backwards and I reckon I won't be the only one.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby [XAP]Bob » 4 Mar 2010, 8:51pm

tatanab wrote:
kwackers wrote:Ride enough and someone will do something stupid. Video it and you can make damn sure if there's a price to pay someone will pay it.

Again, no personal digs because we all do things differently. I do ride "enough". I have had some incidents of course, but do you want to film every second of every ride "just in case"? How do you cope with a few weeks on tour? Or are there specific times when you feel vulnerable?

When unprotected and sharing space with a large number of 2 ton metal objects controlled by impatient imbeciles who have (yet again) left the house late, without having first applied their makeup or made all the phone calls they needed to make.
i.e. typical rush hour traffic.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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iamanidiot
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby iamanidiot » 4 Mar 2010, 9:09pm

glueman wrote:I haven't read the thread...<waffle>

Perhaps you should have? The cyclist in the clip has commented very informatively in it, highlighting aspects of the incident you would not otherwise be aware of.

tatanab wrote:Have motorists started recording their trips because somebody will do something stupid? I think it will be a sad state of affairs if recording becomes the norm - just in case.

Image
:P
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glueman
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby glueman » 4 Mar 2010, 9:25pm

iamanidiot wrote:
glueman wrote:I haven't read the thread...<waffle>



I didn't realise this thread was owned by someone angry and perfect or I wouldn't have bothered contributing.
My mistake.

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EdinburghFixed
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby EdinburghFixed » 4 Mar 2010, 9:48pm

glueman wrote:I haven't read the thread but one of the things that characterise so many of these type of videos is the amount of forward footage and lack of rear observations.
The tanker driver is an idiot of the worst kind, however you have to accept there are plenty of them on the road and insulate yourself from them as far as possible. A left sided observation would have told the cyclist the truck was approaching too fast and he could have simply stopped on the roundabout - better safe than right. I'd have made continual left and right rear ob's with unequivocal hand signals to ensure nobody was in my space. Over the years there have been plenty of times I've left an exit involuntarily because a driver didn't care for my welfare one way or another and turned, but no side swipes.


Until cameras become available which mount on the physical eyeball, they will always deceive the casual viewer.

Out of interest I once wore my headcam in the car, and when I checked either right wing mirror or rear-view, my head didn't move perceptibly in the footage. When I checked the left mirror it looked like I was checking the rear-view. It seems to me that your eyeball moves (roughly) twice as far as your head, but of course they also offer a much wider field-of-view than a camera too.

From a quick re-watch of the video in question it looks like there is:

- full rear observation 12 seconds from the roundabout
- full rear observation 6 seconds from the roundabout
- confirmation of rear obs 4 seconds from the roundabout
- complete observation of lorry's approach road just before passing the give-way line
- again about 1 second later,
- at this point you can see the conflict between watching the direction of travel and the lorry, there is a little bit of flicker as the situation unfolds and the panic kicks in.

I don't know about you, but this is certainly as much observation as I imagine I do (and it is considerably more than I do when I drive this roundabout in the car!)

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EdinburghFixed
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby EdinburghFixed » 4 Mar 2010, 10:13pm

tatanab wrote:
kwackers wrote:Ride enough and someone will do something stupid. Video it and you can make damn sure if there's a price to pay someone will pay it.

Again, no personal digs because we all do things differently. I do ride "enough". I have had some incidents of course, but do you want to film every second of every ride "just in case"? How do you cope with a few weeks on tour? Or are there specific times when you feel vulnerable? Do you wear a camera when entering a dodgy pub for example - ok I know that is being silly. Have motorists started recording their trips because somebody will do something stupid? I think it will be a sad state of affairs if recording becomes the norm - just in case.


One thing this incident has taught me, is that in fact a significant proportion of goods vehicles *are* fitted with cameras "just in case" as an insurance requirement these days. It's highly likely that whenever you ride on a road frequented by hauliers that you are being captured on camera as a matter of routine. In Edinburgh, the local bus services are fitted with about a dozen constantly-operating CCTV cameras (some facing in, some facing out). Apparently they are used for bus lane enforcement amongst other things, which might explain the otherwise inexplicable respect Edinburgh drivers have for bus lanes, when they shun almost every other statute!

Obviously adaptation amongst the driving public will be lower but the fact that there are motoring-specific models strongly suggests there is a market demand.

tatanab wrote:Need for evidence other than witness statements etc - never, and I hope that will always be the case.


If it was so easy, then I'm sure there would be no need for cameras at all. For example, a couple of years ago I was taken out in central Edinburgh at rush hour by an oncoming driver who turned right, through the space I happened to be in at the time. It was a hit and run, and despite two eye-witnesses who gave their details to the police nothing came of it (you'd think it would be a no-brainer for failure to stop, failure to report at least!).

If magnatom had been killed here, I can't imagine the driver getting away with anything less than death-by-dangerous - even other truckers think so. He is so blatantly on the roundabout first, and the truck clearly doesn't respond to him at any point, that the driver would have no leg to stand on.

Contrast this with the last death of a cyclist in Edinburgh, Dr Iain Wilson, who was killed in 2008 by the driver of a Neil Williams Haulage lorry turning left at a cross-roads (the cyclist was travelling straight on). There is literally nothing to be found on the web about whether the driver was prosecuted or not, and what sentence he was given (take from this what you will - but I'd have thought it would be reported if proceedings had been taken).

So, did the cyclist appear from nowhere beside the lorry after the driver had carefully checked his mirrors? Or would camera footage have led to a very different outcome - at present, it seems to all the world that the cyclist effectively committed suicide, if the driver was not found to be at fault.
Last edited by EdinburghFixed on 4 Mar 2010, 10:25pm, edited 1 time in total.

glueman
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby glueman » 4 Mar 2010, 10:16pm

Looking at the video three more times the rear observation point is a side issue to the incident - as I said in my original response I was making a general point about lack of 360 degree awareness. Helmet cams may not tell the whole story, as I don't use one I couldn't say. Based purely on those pov shots there was insufficient observation. If the cyclist had an increased field of view okay, but you have to wonder how much evidence could be gleaned after the event by a 50mm shot.

It seems the truck driver and cyclist arrived at their white lines at roughly the same moment and the truckie did the usual 'might is right' routine and challenged the cyclist to give way which he did not. One psychological trick artic drivers often use is person to person spatial interraction ("you and me both here mate") whilst conveniently forgetting his extra trailer footage. It isn't right but it's common enough to be expected. I once saw a petrol tanker make a cyclist fall in front of his wheels on a roundabout by simply encrouching/bullying on entering it. The rider wasn't to know the driver had seen him, he was too high up but eight foot of Scania radiator was getting ever closer until the rider became un-nerved and fell over.

In the video situation I'd have backed off and not jousted with the lorry if I was in the slightest doubt about his intentions and repeat left side obs would ensure my exit was clear or I could do an emergency right if he'd have kept going. The worrying part is how close the driver let his rig swing towards the cyclist to 'show him a lesson'. I'd say there's clear if anecdotal evidence that the bigger the vehicle the more likely they are to take liberties at all kinds of junctions. I'd be willing to bet this truck driver had previous for that kind of behaviour.

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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby downfader » 4 Mar 2010, 10:22pm

If your local bus service is run by First then you will see their cameras on the busses there. 1x driver's seat, 1x front facing, usually 1x each floor facing passengers and sometimes an extra on facing out rear window over the engine cut button

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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby downfader » 4 Mar 2010, 10:29pm

glueman wrote:It seems the truck driver and cyclist arrived at their white lines at roughly the same moment and the truckie did the usual 'might is right' routine and challenged the cyclist to give way which he did not.


No. They clearly did not. 0.27secs cyclist arrives at giveway line. The truck is in sight at the same time left of frame, but well behind the giveway line (as I can see it on my screen). I'm guessing 10-15feet away from it. 0.30 seconds cyclist screams as truck rolls over line and into his path.

glueman
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby glueman » 4 Mar 2010, 10:35pm

In the truckies eyes you can bet they arrived at the line together. Left side obs (remember you have to look in the direction you are moving in the road to ensure a safety zone) would have told the cyclist he had a nutter about to cross his path. We're talking pragmatism here, not the highway code. The code would have seen the cyclist cross the line a moment before the driver, be completely in the right and make a footnote in the local obituary column.

iamanidiot
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby iamanidiot » 4 Mar 2010, 10:36pm

glueman wrote:
iamanidiot wrote:
glueman wrote:I haven't read the thread...<waffle>



I didn't realise this thread was owned by someone angry and perfect or I wouldn't have bothered contributing.
My mistake.

I assume you are referring to me? I am neither angry nor perfect, nor do I feel I 'own' this thread - once it's posted it belongs to everyone who posts in it. In relation to your most recent post, magnatom stated that he believed he had made eye contact with the driver, and at that point the truck was slowing down. Based on this information you would continue on to the roundabout. The truck then came off the brakes and continued on to the roundabout. Which you'd know if you'd read the thread.
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