Worst youtube clip i've seen...

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EdinburghFixed
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby EdinburghFixed » 4 Mar 2010, 10:39pm

glueman wrote:Looking at the video three more times the rear observation point is a side issue to the incident - as I said in my original response I was making a general point about lack of 360 degree awareness. Helmet cams may not tell the whole story, as I don't use one I couldn't say. Based purely on those pov shots there was insufficient observation. If the cyclist had an increased field of view okay, but you have to wonder how much evidence could be gleaned after the event by a 50mm shot.


It's not a question of 'if', biologically your eyes give you a vastly wider field of view than is represented by all but the heaviest and most expensive SLR lenses. I know because I own both... but my head's only strong enough to hold up one of them ;)

The camera shows us that the cyclist looks left as he negotiates the roundabout, although it doesn't show us what he sees - the other explanation is that he has bizarrely trained himself to turn his head that way while looking straight on, in order to simulate observation skills while deliberately not observing. To me this is a far-fetched alternative.

What I think *is* a valid point, although I don't agree with the ultimate conclusion, is that the incident could have been averted if the cyclist simply slowed at every give way line to protect himself against the risk that at each one in turn, a vehicle will speed onto the road rather than stopping. There is no doubt that by reducing his speed from 15mph to 10mph, or 5mph, magnatom could have ensured that any vehicle barging the roundabout would miss him.

However, practically speaking to ride like this would probably result in a good number of rear-ends, as drivers following cyclists on roundabouts, looking themselves to the right, simply smack into the back of them when they unexpectedly brake at each exit. To say nothing of the fact that cycling slowly enough to ensure safety would be miserably slow!

Myself, having driven that roundabout many times, our car would definitely have gone under the truck. I'd probably slow to no more than 20mph to enter, but certainly not as slow as 10mph going round if it was clear - and that would put us in the dead zone. The truck is probably only doing 15mph and I think it might be extremely hard to decide whether to haul the anchors for every vehicle that had slowed that much, on the assumption it was going to plough on.

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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby glueman » 4 Mar 2010, 10:46pm

iamanidiot wrote:Which you'd know if you'd read the thread.


I qualified what I'd said by saying it was a general point. The observations I made were valid and are unaltered since reading the thread. Saying they are waffle is not conducive to reasoned debate. Cyclists don't make enough rear observations as a rule and drivers take the **** because they know they haven't been seen. If you turn to watch them they are much less inclined pull these sorts of stokes and if they do you know where they are - as I said.

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Swizz69
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby Swizz69 » 4 Mar 2010, 10:56pm

EdinburghFixed wrote: There is no doubt that by reducing his speed from 15mph to 10mph, or 5mph, magnatom could have ensured that any vehicle barging the roundabout would miss him.

But what if he had joined the roundabout from a different entry point, and just happened to be in the same spot as the idiot driving the truck steamrollered onto the junction?

The clear fact is that whether the truck was bullying, or wasn't paying attention, he had no intention of stopping for anybody. Providing what the rider says is correct (that he did see the truck slowing down & giving the impression he wasn't going to pull out), I don't think our guy did much wrong. When the driver made his split second decision, he wouldn't have left anyone with much time to react, so in avoiding a crash - well done cyclist.

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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby iamanidiot » 4 Mar 2010, 10:57pm

glueman wrote:
iamanidiot wrote:Which you'd know if you'd read the thread.
If you turn to watch them they are much less inclined pull these sorts of stokes and if they do you know where they are - as I said.

You mean the way magnatom said he believed he had?

I could explain my issues with your initial post further, but it's way off topic. Suffice to say I feel it was a bit like if you'd said "I haven't watched the video but...".
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby glueman » 4 Mar 2010, 11:02pm

EdinburghFixed wrote:

What I think *is* a valid point, although I don't agree with the ultimate conclusion, is that the incident could have been averted if the cyclist simply slowed at every give way line to protect himself against the risk that at each one in turn, a vehicle will speed onto the road rather than stopping. There is no doubt that by reducing his speed from 15mph to 10mph, or 5mph, magnatom could have ensured that any vehicle barging the roundabout would miss him.


In my experience cyclists are ill-advised to joust on roundabouts. Motorised traffic acts like the white helmets display team with paint thickness clearances because they feel, incorrectly, they are protected from peril by the bodywork. It's the reason why big vehicles like trucks behave in the manner of this chump. Cyclists have none of the mass to dissuade other vehicles from trying it on and, personally speaking, I often ride more slowly round such junctions and signal by pointing and look turn to look at drivers more than absolutely necessary to ensure I'm bringing the game down to my speed, not their's.

There are just too many vehicles happy to see whether they'll miss your back or front tyre by an inch or a foot, as well as lorry drivers getting their story straight about how you'd come from nowhere at 20 mph to not ride defensively at roundabouts.

Iamanidiot, I watched the video - or how would I have made the observation about life-savers? - I hadn't read the subsequent thread when I first posted. This thread is in danger of pedantry to the point of evasion so I'm out.

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meic
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby meic » 5 Mar 2010, 12:32am

I remember the Lifesaver, the seventh and last point in "The System" of advanced roadcraft.
It is that last look over the shoulder before deviating your course, in case some idiot is trying to overtake.

How would that help in locating a tanker who is pulling out in front of you?

Yes on a roundabout, the description used was you need a pivot stuck up your rectum so that you can swivel for all round observation. True perfectionists maintain a 360 deg observation at all times, the rest of us compromise by allocating most of our attention to the main danger points. The way in which that allocation is done is so above analysis that it is refered to as a sixth sense.
Those who lack it get crushed under the truck wheels, those who have it stop in time.
No amount of observation could determine that the truck would ignore road law and proceed. Magnatron considered it and got eye-contact. In the advanced training it is generally accepted that WITHOUT eye contact you should allow for the driver proceeding, however establishing eye contact is considered the trigger for assuming you can proceed.
It is quite clear that the tanker was the MAIN focus of the riders attention and rightly so, so why criticise his rear observations when they were quite apparent and frequent and totally irrelevant?
The rule of thumb on the Advanced was look behind at each count of five, but dont look backwards when you should be looking forwards.
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meic
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby meic » 5 Mar 2010, 12:45am

I am just imagining how this would have been dealt with if I was on the Advanced Test on my motorcycle.
So long as the truck was behind the line or slowing in front of the line, I would be expected to proceed but maybee loose a little speed (although probably not as low as the 15mph the cyclist was doing) . Also keep him under observation and try to establish eye contact. Braking would only be triggered by the decision that he IS proceeding, either due to acceleration or failure to carry on slowing however he would be allowed enough leeway to be compatable with coming in behind me IF I had established eye contact.
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EdinburghFixed
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby EdinburghFixed » 5 Mar 2010, 8:56am

Today I went through a red light, followed closely by a white lorry which was clearly not stopping. Althugh I could have been nailed by cross traffic that was anticipating their own green phase, I judged that risk the lesser, and went after only the smallest hesistation.

Thing is, I could have had a video where I "shot a red light and was killed by an innocent motorist", or I could have had a video of me "slamming on the brakes in front of a lorry driver who had nowhere else to go". In either case many experts (so-called and genuine) would have had a great deal to say about what I did wrong. Yet, which is definitively the preferable way to go?

The sad fact is, while there are many situations where an experienced rider can control events, it is possible with all prudence to be placed in lose-lose situations. In the video we're discussing, it would of course be possible with hindsight to cycle round the roundabout at 5mph just in case, but where is the balance point between inviting people on in front of you, and/or being hit from behind?

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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby drsquirrel » 5 Mar 2010, 3:32pm

iamanidiot wrote:
hubgearfreak wrote:but how the cyclist didn't spot that danger escapes me :shock:

I thought about that as well, but he does see the danger and stops, the lorry then ends up closer to him because it's turning. However prepared we are when we're cycling we have to admit that none of us would automatically assume that the lorry will pull out onto the roundabout.


What I hate is the comments of people suggesting you should always stop and check anyway... that would just annoy everyone, and I/we would have to end up stopping to let every single car out of a junction "just in case".

On a positive note, most of the users on truckersnet see that it was bad, it's just the few anti-cyclist posting over and over making it look like most are anti-

My favourite quote from truckersnet is...
"That the tanker driver was legally in the wrong is not in dispute, but the cyclist was equally able to avoid the potential accident."

Wait... he *DID* avoid the accident... *sigh*

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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby Cunobelin » 5 Mar 2010, 3:44pm

EdinburghFixed wrote:What I think *is* a valid point, although I don't agree with the ultimate conclusion, is that the incident could have been averted if the cyclist simply slowed at every give way line to protect himself against the risk that at each one in turn, a vehicle will speed onto the road rather than stopping.


A popular concept, and I believe Harlow applied this with cyclists doing what they considered neccessary to avoid the danger of cars not stopping....

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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby irc » 6 Mar 2010, 12:21am

Interestingly I used to enter this roundabout from the same road as Magnatom every day on my commute . Relevant factors are that there is a long gradual downhill before the RAB so bikes are going faster than motorists expect them to and the RAB is a bad design. The diameter is small so there is little distance between the various roads entering it. Traffic entering from the road the HGV entered from doesn't have to go round the RAB (which would make them slow down) but can take a straight line through.

The correct line is that taken by Magnatom. A central line is required to prevent following cars overtaking on the approach and allows a fast line through the RAB. I get within about 3 feet of the central kerb going through.Caution is needed I've had two or three drivers pull out on me. If there is anything approaching from thaty first left I assume they are not going to give way and slow down to go through the RAB.

No idea what speed Magnatom was doing. I go through it at maybe 18-20mph - if there is no traffic approaching from the left. Maybe 15mph, covering the brakes, if there is traffic on the left.

I suspect the HGV driver had a stop/go decision and decided to maintain his momemtum going through rather than brake to a halt. Either didn't care about Magnatom needing to do an emergency stop or misjudged his speed.

Or looked for cars and didn't see the bike at all. One of the cars that pulled out in front of me had a dozy driver who I don't think saw me until I was braking 10 feet from her window and shouting. The look of suprised shock when she realised she had nearly hit me told me that.
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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby magnatom » 6 Mar 2010, 1:23pm

irc wrote:Interestingly I used to enter this roundabout from the same road as Magnatom every day on my commute . Relevant factors are that there is a long gradual downhill before the RAB so bikes are going faster than motorists expect them to and the RAB is a bad design. The diameter is small so there is little distance between the various roads entering it. Traffic entering from the road the HGV entered from doesn't have to go round the RAB (which would make them slow down) but can take a straight line through.

The correct line is that taken by Magnatom. A central line is required to prevent following cars overtaking on the approach and allows a fast line through the RAB. I get within about 3 feet of the central kerb going through.Caution is needed I've had two or three drivers pull out on me. If there is anything approaching from thaty first left I assume they are not going to give way and slow down to go through the RAB.

No idea what speed Magnatom was doing. I go through it at maybe 18-20mph - if there is no traffic approaching from the left. Maybe 15mph, covering the brakes, if there is traffic on the left.

I suspect the HGV driver had a stop/go decision and decided to maintain his momemtum going through rather than brake to a halt. Either didn't care about Magnatom needing to do an emergency stop or misjudged his speed.

Or looked for cars and didn't see the bike at all. One of the cars that pulled out in front of me had a dozy driver who I don't think saw me until I was braking 10 feet from her window and shouting. The look of suprised shock when she realised she had nearly hit me told me that.


Always interesting to get a local perspective on it. I agree with your speed assessment, and as I've said previously I reckon I was going about 15mph.

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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby larfingravy » 6 Mar 2010, 2:51pm

Having just looked through many of Magnatom's videos I've formed the opinion that he makes more out of situations than he really needs to. Granted many videos record some stupid drivers, but he doesn't really help himself.

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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby CREPELLO » 6 Mar 2010, 3:18pm

FWIW and others here will have said similar, I always attempt to judge the intentions of those coming onto the RAB. Drivers have a very nasty habit of drifting past the giveway/entrance line, especially when I am exiting the RAB - this has got to be potentially the most dangerous part of the RAB manoeuvre. And I Always attempt to gain eye contact with drivers.
My head must resemble that of an owl doing a virtual 360* - it's when I do my best neck exercises :D .

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Re: Worst youtube clip i've seen...

Postby rower40 » 6 Mar 2010, 6:19pm

irc wrote:Or looked for cars and didn't see the bike at all. One of the cars that pulled out in front of me had a dozy driver who I don't think saw me until I was braking 10 feet from her window and shouting. The look of suprised shock when she realised she had nearly hit me told me that.

I had something similar at a mini-roundabout: 3 exits. I was turning right from road 1 to road 3, and an HGV was entering from road 2. Due to our relative approaches to the roundabout, I had been completely invisible to the HGV behind his huge wing-mirror, so unable to make eye-contact. I stopped, he pulled out onto the roundabout and his face was a picture of shock when I suddenly appeared out of nowhere (as far as he was concerned). I waved him on.

So he'd just been unlucky, as he'd been expecting to see a car, but I had managed to hide behind his mirror. No malice or aggro. Unlike magnatom's interaction with the Dangerous (*) Goods Lorry.

(*) Both the contents of the lorry and the actions of the driver.
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