Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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beachcomber
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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby beachcomber » 7 Mar 2010, 2:15pm

largeallan wrote:
CREPELLO wrote:addressing the cyclists here who sometimes cycle, including 'Largeallen'


What do you mean? I cycle every day provided its not snowing. Is this us getting onto the moral superiority theme? I'm an HGV driver, and a cyclist...that doesn't mean I have a dark side. There are plenty of A roads up here where its difficult enough going past other traffic let alone worrying about giving cyclists two-abreast plenty of room.....I spend too much time in the lorry to give myself a heart attack through ranting at other road users. As I've said, I've nothing but patience where other cyclists are concerned, but common sense says to me that if a lorry is struggling for space to pass, then what's wrong with going in single file for 30 seconds? I've even seen cyclists in single file as i slow behind them, swooping out two abreast intentionally...out of pig ignorance if you ask me. As I've said, once again, this kind of selfishness isn't restricted to motorised road users...I think its a reflection of attitudes in this country in general today...nobody gives a monkey's about anyone else. Nobody's saying drive in the gutter, or over broken mondeo bits by the kerb, I certainly dont, but a bit of common sense and self preservation has to come into play.

....and at the risk of being controversial, the more colourful the lycra, it seems to me, the larger the moral high horse. I've noticed so many of the slim tyre brigade have trouble acknowleging tourers and MTB'ers etc as they pass....so what chance to motorists have?


The issue of waving or not waving is not restricted to cycling. I ride a motorbike. Some riders wave other don't. When driving my camper van other camper van drivers wave I usually don't.Oddly they wave when your behind the wheel but ignore you on camp sites.
I ride MTB, tourer, city bike, tandem and am also a member of the 'slim tyre brigade'. I'll wave at anybody. Many of the 'STB' don't wave at other 'STB' members. I occasionally acknowledge riders who are approaching me only to see they are commuting on a bicycle shaped object and they look back at me as if I'm unhinged.
Not waving is not restricted to 'STB' riders :lol:

largeallan
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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby largeallan » 7 Mar 2010, 2:27pm

Haha, I think I might just be a social-butterfly...You're right of course, its not restricted to cycling by any means, but I've just noticed that certain types out on the bike are less likely than others to be civil...and its just an observation that the sporty types are worse than others
I've noticed it hill-walking...certain types can meet you on top of a mountain and completely ignore you...you say hello and its as if you're invisible....miles from the next human being!!!...now that kind of ignorance takes effort IMHO!! I also noticed it when I lived in London for a couple of years; a polite 'good morning' was always met by a look as though you've got two heads.
To me, its far easier to say hello than not to....

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CREPELLO
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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby CREPELLO » 7 Mar 2010, 2:34pm

largeallan wrote:
CREPELLO wrote:addressing the cyclists here who sometimes cycle, including 'Largeallen'


What do you mean? I cycle every day provided its not snowing. Is this us getting onto the moral superiority theme? I'm an HGV driver, and a cyclist...that doesn't mean I have a dark side. There are plenty of A roads up here where its difficult enough going past other traffic let alone worrying about giving cyclists two-abreast plenty of room.....I spend too much time in the lorry to give myself a heart attack through ranting at other road users. As I've said, I've nothing but patience where other cyclists are concerned, but common sense says to me that if a lorry is struggling for space to pass, then what's wrong with going in single file for 30 seconds? I've even seen cyclists in single file as i slow behind them, swooping out two abreast intentionally...out of pig ignorance if you ask me. As I've said, once again, this kind of selfishness isn't restricted to motorised road users...I think its a reflection of attitudes in this country in general today...nobody gives a monkey's about anyone else. Nobody's saying drive in the gutter, or over broken mondeo bits by the kerb, I certainly dont, but a bit of common sense and self preservation has to come into play.


It's absolutely not a question of moral superiority; it is your emphasis of the arrogance of some cyclists.

Your gripe is with cycling two a breast. To that I would say - the amount of road space you should be giving when overtaking ought to be approximately the same for a single cyclist or two abreast, ie, you should use most of the other lane for your manouevre. The irony (or paradox) is that if it is difficult to overtake two abreast, the road is almost certainly a twisty road that should demand extra care when overtaking.

The question of cyclists holding traffic back is a subjective point and a complex one for me too. For example, on a winding road, if I'm aware that there is traffic behind, do I invite the first vehicle behind to pass, at the risk of 'x' number following on like sheep regardless of the road conditions? Although it may seem polite to invite traffic to pass, it is sometimes/often risky and likely to make little difference, unless I slow right down (which has it's own risks attached).

I know what you want from cyclists Alan and that's cooperation. If it reassures you, when it comes to lorries I try and engage in cooperation, by signalling or acknowledgement of the lorry's presence ( a quick glance over the shoulder, even if I don't make eye contact). But I do assert the right to not cooperate, occasionally blocking outright. This is my life I'm protecting here! It not a question of arrogance, but of asserting my road presence. This is because no one road user should hold the presumption on deciding when it's safe to commit to a hazardous move. Equally, I will help lorry's past me when I can clearly see that there is enough clear road ahead, by indicting my willingness to cooperate and even slow down if it means that the lorry can get back in lane if necessary.

By the way, my lycra is all black :wink:

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CREPELLO
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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby CREPELLO » 7 Mar 2010, 2:38pm

AND I'm not particularly enamoured to the elitist types either, for when I wave to them (on my tourer) I often don't get a response. To damn cool to wave.

largeallan
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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby largeallan » 7 Mar 2010, 2:53pm

There's a lot we agree on there, my point is that it can turn into a hazardous situation for no good reason....I never overtake when there's even a chance of terrorising cyclists. The point is 40 tonnes being forced to run along the crumbling edge of the opposite side of the road is ridiculous....not to mention watching your inside mirror at the same time.....You keep in single file and i'll keep the motor away from you....easy!! and we're all safe

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CREPELLO
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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby CREPELLO » 7 Mar 2010, 3:05pm

largeallan wrote:The point is 40 tonnes being forced to run along the crumbling edge of the opposite side of the road is ridiculous....not to mention watching your inside mirror at the same time.....You keep in single file and i'll keep the motor away from you....easy!! and we're all safe
Mmm, ok. :?
But the example I came across yesterday would have been tricky for your lorry no? They were all in single file.

I think the thing is that drivers and cyclists all need much better training for road and traffic awareness. So, if I cycle a metre out from the gutter, it isn't because I'm being blase or arrogant, but because I'm using road awareness in order to compel drivers to slow down and move out further when overtaking. It's a move that requires due consideration and my road position instigates that thought process!

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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby drossall » 7 Mar 2010, 3:41pm

largeallan wrote:....and at the risk of being controversial, the more colourful the lycra, it seems to me, the larger the moral high horse.

I do find this kind of argument odd. For one thing, good cycle gear is much more widely available than it was. 20 years ago, if you saw someone dressed like a club cyclist, you knew that they were a club cyclist. Now, they are very likely to be the guys next door, who do no more than go off riding with a mate on a Sunday, and have no connection with any other cyclist of any type.

In some cases, people who do only utility riding will wear "proper" gear - which is fine by me, but not, it seems, by largeallan. The vast majority even of club cyclists are drivers who happen to be riding bikes today anyway, but these guys even more so. So who are these "lycra louts"? The mates you meet down the pub, largely.

As to drivers overtaking, I disagree about the space they give to cyclists. My observations suggest that there is a very clear trend for some drivers to give more space than was previously the case. However, there is not a trend to choose the spot more carefully. It's just that these drivers now run the car coming the other way off the road, instead of, as previously, running us off. That's the way it happens on the way to work, anyway.

(To state the obvious, there have always been careful drivers, who have no need to change their behaviour; this is about the others...)

I do feel that club groups who ride together a lot can be better at singling out at appropriate moments than ad hoc groups such as Audax rides. Of course, both wear the same lycra, so I'm not sure how largeallan would tell the difference.

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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby largeallan » 7 Mar 2010, 4:21pm

CREPELLO wrote:So, if I cycle a metre out from the gutter, it isn't because I'm being blase or arrogant, but because I'm using road awareness in order to compel drivers to slow down and move out further when overtaking.


I couldn't agree more...I cycle approximately a metre out myself and I think that's perfectly reasonable. The problem comes when you're a metre out, your pal is a metre or more out from you and you expect reasonable clearance....do you think a metre of clearance from an artic is enough?....I dont,I think that scares a lot of people and when a cyclist is 40-odd feet behind your mirrors a metre clearance doesn't look much....

drossall wrote:In some cases, people who do only utility riding will wear "proper" gear - which is fine by me, but not, it seems, by largeallan.


I don't care what anybody wears frankly, I was merely making an observation from my own experience
drossall wrote:(To state the obvious, there have always been careful drivers, who have no need to change their behaviour; this is about the others...)

Again, I agree though I include cyclists in this too....being considerate costs nothing

bodach
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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby bodach » 7 Mar 2010, 4:46pm

I am with largeallan on this.I do not drive an hgv or lgv nowadays but I have for some time now driven a relatively slow van. Cyclists in general do not think (why should they) of the slow acceleration of such vehicles and the consequent difficulty in overtaking safely.My gripe is groups doing E to E rides up the A82 where you get long strings of bikes on an often very narrow and busy road which makes overtaking very hazardous for all concerned.I have been stuck at about 10 or 15 mph for miles sometimes with a consequent back up of impatient traffic building up behind. Not a pleasant situation.

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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby drossall » 7 Mar 2010, 4:51pm

I didn't really mean that you mind what people wear. I'm trying to say that "ordinary" people wear lycra too, but you view people differently if they do. I'm not convinced that wearing lycra is a sign of a particular type of cyclist any more.

You're certainly not the only person to say it though. I'm inclined to think that it's like lights - cyclists "never" use lights because those with lights don't get noticed, and cyclists without lycra don't get noticed either (or at least their offences don't).

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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby drossall » 7 Mar 2010, 5:04pm

bodach - the riders are most certainly going to be every bit as likely as any driver to know about your slow acceleration, because they will be drivers. Virtually all cyclists are. I don't see why cyclists would be any less likely to know than anyone else?

It's a real difficulty - remember that yours is not the only large, slow vehicle on the road. The cyclists have a right to use it without stopping every hundred yards because another one is behind. On the other hand, you would expect them to stop every now and again - just as a tractor or caravan may pull over from time to time.

I imagine that the issue with end to end rides is the one of ad hoc groups that I alluded to regarding Audaxes - the challenge is so popular now that many groups will not contain regular "lycra" riders, and will not be used to riding together, singling out, breaking the group up, and other things used to making life easier for overtaking motorists. This is different from largeallan, who seems to find that all lycra-clad riders are the same?

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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby reohn2 » 7 Mar 2010, 7:26pm

largeallan wrote:Haha, I think I might just be a social-butterfly...You're right of course, its not restricted to cycling by any means, but I've just noticed that certain types out on the bike are less likely than others to be civil...and its just an observation that the sporty types are worse than others
I've noticed it hill-walking...certain types can meet you on top of a mountain and completely ignore you...you say hello and its as if you're invisible....miles from the next human being!!!...now that kind of ignorance takes effort IMHO!! I also noticed it when I lived in London for a couple of years; a polite 'good morning' was always met by a look as though you've got two heads.
To me, its far easier to say hello than not to....


I quitee agree,there are those who don't give two hoots for anyone but number 1(the I,me,myself,the important one) these are everywhere in all walks of life,in all social situations,theres not a lot we can do about it.
On the road however they are breaking laws when they insist on riding two abreast "where it isn't safe to do so" or when its not safe to overtake ie bends or bridges where they can't see if its safe to do so,such is their social arrogance.
Today we(two tandems)signaling to turn right in the middle of the road with a double unbroken white down the centre, on a lefthand bend, were overtaken almost at the junction of the road we were about to turn into,by two cars, both with families in :shock: .This is dangous driving in the extreme IMHO.
Our problem is one of selfishness and even then not very well thought out selfishness,I've lost count recently of cars overtaking me whilst cycling alone, giving me plenty of room but completely disregading the oncoming traffic, therebye causing them to stop and in one case mount the pavement.
It beggers belief that some people will risk all of their life(and/or someone elses) to save a few seconds of it.
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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby meic » 7 Mar 2010, 7:58pm

When i am in my car or on my motorbike, I often get stuck behind someone that I would like to overtake. I just wait until if it is safe to do so and if (as normal in the car) I am too slow then I just stay behind sometimes for 20 or 40 miles. It is a simple fact of sharing the road. If on the motorbike I was to take a chance and overtake a truck doing well below my legally allowed speed and cut in sharp due to oncoming traffic, who is at fault me or the truck for not being as far left as I would choose him to be?
Why is that not a possibility with respect to a cyclist?
In particular Largeallen why is your performing a safe overtake CONDITIONAL on cyclists riding as you would like?
Even the most unfortunate truck that is caught behind me would never have to wait more than half a mile before I have a chance to let them through. However non ever do wait more than 100 yds before cracking and just overtaking leaving not enough space for me or the oncoming cars. Most of course dont even slow in the first place.
Do you really believe that you have an unquestionable right to overtake a cyclist, unsafely if you dont like their riding position, if the option was to be delayed a little?
It is weird that what is clearly wrong for a motorcyclist is considered OK for a HGV.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby [XAP]Bob » 7 Mar 2010, 8:49pm

meic wrote:In particular Largeallen why is your performing a safe overtake CONDITIONAL on cyclists riding as you would like?


I think Largeallen is saying that he likes to give LOTS of room to cyclists, acknowledging that as a large vehicle he causes significant air disturbance, and that he has limited awareness of exact positions some 40 feet back from his wing mirrors.

If a cyclist is positioned to the right of centre in the lane then it is very hard to give them more than 1/4 lane space, which he doesn't feel is enough. If they ride single file and slightly left of centre then it's possible to give them twice that clearance.

I can see where he is coming from, although I'd have thought that the decreased length of a group of cyclists would be of assistance.

TBH though, with reference to the OP. You'd get abuse for doing anything which is perceived as even slightly detrimental to the next 2 seconds of any car journey. The distance most people look ahead on the road can be measured in angstroms, and not very many of those.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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Re: Abused For Defending a Group of Cyclist's Whilst Driving

Postby bensonboo » 8 Mar 2010, 5:23pm

Does the same princple apply to scooters and motorcyclists? Imagine the outcry if they started riding two abreast on 'safety' grounds...