Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

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iviehoff
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Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by iviehoff »

A rare occurrence.

Under no pressure, a small truck (which had been bugging me the whole length of the street) coolly pulled up to the junction ahead of me, completely ignoring the cyclists' Advanced Stop Line. This is a regular occurrence at this junction, despite the policeman permanently posted at it, being adjacent to the Chinese Embassy. Today the policeman decided to walk over and give the truck driver a piece of his mind.

The policeman told him it could be 3 points and £60 fine. Whilst I'm happy to have the driver think it, I'm not sure this is true. If he is in error, then I'm not very happy about it, having once been on the receiving end of a policeman making an erroneous statement of the law to me.
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anothereye
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by anothereye »

iviehoff wrote:The policeman told him it could be 3 points and £60 fine. Whilst I'm happy to have the driver think it, I'm not sure this is true. If he is in error, then I'm not very happy about it, having once been on the receiving end of a policeman making an erroneous statement of the law to me.
As far as I know it is true. Nice to see something being done; all be it just a warning.
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gaz545
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by gaz545 »

You (a vehicle that isn't a bicycle) can be fined for driving into an ASL whilst the light is red.
3 points on the license and a £60 would be the standard.
But how many tickets have been issued for this offense?
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/n ... p_line_asl
iviehoff
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by iviehoff »

I thought there was something like this they couldn't enforce, perhaps it's blocking cycle-lanes.

I find it very odd that there are no prosecution statistics. I thought things like this were recorded.
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meic
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by meic »

I think that they are prosecuted for failing to stop at a red light, so it is impossible to select which of the cars jumping the redlights were doing so just by entering an ASL area.
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anothereye
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by anothereye »

meic wrote:I think that they are prosecuted for failing to stop at a red light, so it is impossible to select which of the cars jumping the redlights were doing so just by entering an ASL area.
That's correct; it's the same offense as crossing the stop line when there is no ASL. I think the police response is badly worded, rather than "there is no offense..." it should read "no separate offense".
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Cunobelin
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by Cunobelin »

Its a judgement call

If the vehicle is in the ASL when the lights change then technically it is not there illegally. However if the light is red when the vehicle is required to either stop at the first line or enter through the cycle lane. If it enters the box then it is a simple failure to stop.


Funnily enough you have to use an open access through a cycle lane, a cyclist accessing the box in any other way is committing the same offence - and if you see one of those with a solid white line then it is illegal for cyclists to enter at all!
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anothereye
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by anothereye »

Cunobelin wrote:Funnily enough you have to use an open access through a cycle lane, a cyclist accessing the box in any other way is committing the same offence - and if you see one of those with a solid white line then it is illegal for cyclists to enter at all!
even though it's safer to enter the 'box' on the outside?
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mark1701
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by mark1701 »

I always wonder about the legality of entering the ASL on a red if there is no feeder lane for cyclists. Is there a lawyer here who knows the answer?. As far as I know, it's motor vehicles that have to stop, not bicycles. Maybe someone can clarify this? :?:

Anyway, the law does indeed have provision for drivers who find themselves stuck in the ASL through no fault of their own. It's happened to me in our company vehicles: You start moving and then the car in front stalls or something and then the damn lights change!. Still, it does remain illegal to deliberately enter the ASL on red. And by a long shot, the worst offenders are motorcyclists :evil: . I'm fed up of sitting in the ASL, waiting for the lights to change only to have some huge motorbike barge past me, go through the box and almost into the junction, as if to prove to me that they have some kind of 'right' to do so. I saw one guy almost get clobbered by a turning bus (he miscalculated the turning circle) because he insisted on riding out through the box. Don't they realise that it's not only illegal (failure to stop at the second line constitutes jumping the lights), but it's dangerous riding?. Maybe the rules governing the ASL should be made into a more significant part of the motorbike tests.

One of these days I'm going to be sitting in the ASL and some biker is going to get hit by a turning vehicle because of their bad road positioning.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by Cunobelin »

LInes are simple, you cannot cross the first line if the lights are red

From the City of London Police:

Advanced Stop Lines

Advanced stop lines are a set of white stop lines placed at junctions which are controlled by traffic lights. They have been created to allow a safe haven for cyclists at the head of a queue of traffic waiting for the traffic lights to change to green. Cyclists are required to enter this Advanced Stop Box area by the prescribed cycle lane. Drivers of vehicles must obey the rules relating to traffic lights (A reminder of these rules is listed below).

Where the road markings shown in the picture below have been placed in conjunction with Traffic light signals, a "stop line" in relation to those light signals means:



The first stop line is the first white stop line painted on the road surface a vehicle would cross on the approach to the traffic lights (apart from cyclists in a prescribed cycle lane);

The second stop line is the white stop line painted on the road surface closest to the traffic lights. This stop line is applicable to all road users.

Image


When a vehicle approaches an advanced stop line system and the traffic lights at the junction change from green to amber, the vehicle must stop before the first stop line (closest to your vehicle). Unless the vehicle is either on the stop line or so close to the stop line that it would be unsafe to stop prior to the first stop line, then the vehicle may cross the first stop line but must stop before the second stop line.

These photographs show the advanced stop lines system in use at Bank junction, and illustrate both correct and incorrect use. In this photograph, the taxi has stopped behind the first stop line, as required by law, and is demonstrating correct use of the advanced stop lines.

Image

In this photograph, the taxi has driven beyond the first stop line and into the advanced stop box reserved for use by cyclists, and is breaking the law (unless the vehicle was so close to the first stop line when the lights changed that it would have been unsafe to stop).

Image



thirdcrank
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by thirdcrank »

Cunobelin wrote:LInes are simple, you cannot cross the first line if the lights are red

To be thread to needle, you cannot cross the first line if the lights are at stop.
Highway Code

Rule 178
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows.

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10, 36(1) & 43(2)]


Here's the actual regulation including the bit about cyclists using a cycle lane

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002 ... on/43/made
and for people who cannot be bothered with links:
Meaning of stop line and references to light signals
43.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), “stop line” in relation to light signals for the control of vehicular traffic means—

(a)in relation to any vehicle except a tramcar the road marking shown in diagram 1001 placed in conjunction with the light signals;
(b)in relation to a tramcar, the road marking shown in diagram 1001.1 placed in conjunction with those light signals, or when that marking has not been so placed, the marking shown in diagram 1001 so placed.
(2) Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 has been placed in conjunction with light signals, “stop line” in relation to those light signals means—

(a)the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or
(b)the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane.
mark1701
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by mark1701 »

Okay, so this means that no-one, including cyclists can use an ASL without a feeder cycle lane. Which means that here in Bristol for example, the large ASL outside Temple Meads station is utterly useless as you cannot enter it if the light is red. You might stand a chance of getting in it if the light is amber and it would be obviously pointless stopping in it if the light is green!.

This, of course, means that many ASL's in this country are badly designed and actually illegal to use :?
thirdcrank
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by thirdcrank »

It may be worth remembering the history of ASLs in the UK.

When they were first introduced, two sets of signals were used. The first set (looking at it on the approach) had a green pedal cycle aspect which was permanently on, allowing cyclists to pass that signal (subject to the usual care etc.) At the second STOP line there was another complete set of signals, synchronised with the first. This was a very expensive arrangement, which could normally only be installed at the same time as a complete 'improvement' of the junction, which might take place only every 20 or 30 years.

The new arrangement was was tested (in Bristol?) and found to be OK at a fraction of the cost, needing only the cycle sign on the pole and a bit of surface paint.

The legislators had a tough time devising a watertight form of words which required the drivers of motor vehicles to stop at the first line. The problem being that if a vehicle is so close to the line that its driver cannot safely stop when the signal turns to amber, the driver may continue but if they then stop at the second line (safer than continuing) they will be stuck in the ASL box. Without cameras it's very difficult to enforce true RLJ'ing so it's arguably out of proportion to be issuing tickets for trespassing in the cyclists' waiting area. Some of us - but by no means all - believe that cyclists might have a stronger case if some of us - again by no means all - didn't ignore traffic lights - and then get excited when the police had the effrontery to enforce them.

Whatever the legalities or otherwise of ASLs without a stop line, they do give some prominent encouragement to filtering to a prominent position at the front of the queue.
Jonty

Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by Jonty »

Excellent to hear about a policeman supporting a cyclist. These cyclists' boxes as I call them have to be approached with caution in my view.
I was cycling with a friend and we approached traffic lights on a short but quite steep hill where we wanted to turn right. Fortunately, I noticed that the lights had been changed for a little time so I tucked in behind some of the waiting traffic.
My friend, who was ahead of me, decided to go up the inside and then cut across to the box once he had undertaken all the queueing traffic.
As he moved into the box from left to right, the lights changed and he was almost knocked off by a 4 X 4 driver who didn't see him.
I suppose the last thing the driver was expecting was for a cyclist to come straight across just in front of him from the left as the lights changed.
My friend blamed the driver who was obviously frightened by the experience.
I told him that IMO he was at fault for not realizing that he didn't have time to reach the box before the lights changed.
I think the moral is only try and get into the box ahead of a queue of traffic it you have the time and be careful cutting across the front of a vehicle waiting for the lights to change.
If it doubt stay behind.
jonty
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Policeman told off Advanced Stop Line infringer

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Jonty wrote:Excellent to hear about a policeman supporting a cyclist. These cyclists' boxes as I call them have to be approached with caution in my view.
I was cycling with a friend and we approached traffic lights on a short but quite steep hill where we wanted to turn right. Fortunately, I noticed that the lights had been changed for a little time so I tucked in behind some of the waiting traffic.
My friend, who was ahead of me, decided to go up the inside and then cut across to the box once he had undertaken all the queueing traffic.
As he moved into the box from left to right, the lights changed and he was almost knocked off by a 4 X 4 driver who didn't see him.
I suppose the last thing the driver was expecting was for a cyclist to come straight across just in front of him from the left as the lights changed.
My friend blamed the driver who was obviously frightened by the experience.
I told him that IMO he was at fault for not realizing that he didn't have time to reach the box before the lights changed.
I think the moral is only try and get into the box ahead of a queue of traffic it you have the time and be careful cutting across the front of a vehicle waiting for the lights to change.
If it doubt stay behind.
jonty

I normally simply ignored the daft bit of legislation and overtake the traffic into the box (checking indicators etc)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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