Good Afternoon all,
I am in the research stage of my final design project which will be the crowning centre piece to my Product Design Bsc here at Bournemouth University. After long and hard deliberation I have settled on the design of a mudguard (thinking along the lines of SKS chromolplast i.e. permenant/semi permenat fixings to frame) with integrated lighting. The power for the lighting will come from induction coils similar to the system used in the Reelight units.
I've had Reelight clones on my bike for a year now and been very impressed with their workman like qualities, I've done literally nothing to them in the way of maintenance and they have soldiered on through daily use. However they are far to low and not bright enough to be used on their own. By incorporating them into mudguards they can be placed in a position where they can be seen. They also have the advantage of not needing batteries with all the advantages that brings.
I've got a lot of experience of riding my own bike through the mean streets of Bournemouth and Amsterdam so have experienced many of the delights of night riding. But I haven't cycled much in other cities and most of my journeys are short. So I am appealing to all of you that make commuter journeys for your thoughts and insights.
The mudguard will be aimed at commuters and what I am calling utility cyclists (people who use their bicycles as transport around cities, hoping on and off to pop to the shops or bars) and will aim to be a product that provides protection from the elements as well as a highly visible light source.
Now for the questions;
Q.1 I was thinking of having a large (50mm x 300mm) strip of constant red light on the rear mudguard, would you prefer a flashing mode?
Q.2 Do you use panniers and if so do they obscure any of the mudguard when viewed from behind?
Q.3 Would you feel safe with only a large strip of light at the back of your bike?
Q.4 What would you be willing to pay for such a product?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the ideas I have proposed, the more feedback the better.
Many thanks
Trevor Brinkman
Some help required from commuters.
Re: Some help required from commuters.
- A big area is good
- It shouldn't be obscured by many panniers from directly behind at any rate (although lateral views will be impeded)
- Flashing is good for being noticed, not so good for judging speed/distance, so both would be good.
I'd suggest a feed to be able to add extra panels to panniers etc to increase the width of illuminations. Amazing how many drivers assume your lights are on each corner...
This could also increase the lateral visibility where panniers are fitted (on that side obviously
)
Also useful if you use a trailer...
The mudguard would need to be properly full length, close fitting guard with a mudflap (I'm assuming that utility includes trailers)
- It shouldn't be obscured by many panniers from directly behind at any rate (although lateral views will be impeded)
- Flashing is good for being noticed, not so good for judging speed/distance, so both would be good.
I'd suggest a feed to be able to add extra panels to panniers etc to increase the width of illuminations. Amazing how many drivers assume your lights are on each corner...
This could also increase the lateral visibility where panniers are fitted (on that side obviously
)Also useful if you use a trailer...
The mudguard would need to be properly full length, close fitting guard with a mudflap (I'm assuming that utility includes trailers)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Re: Some help required from commuters.
Interesting idea. I suggest you ensure the device satisfies the British Standards for both rear lights and rear reflectors.
Q1. A choice of constant or flashing would be good, unless it adds to the cost as that would need a switch. A standlight function would also be useful (the ability to remain on for, say, 60 seconds after the wheel stops rotating).
Q2. I've never seen panniers that obscure the mudguard from behind.
Q3. Yes, if it complied with BS and was comparably bright to other modern lights.
Q4. SKS mudguards with flaps and reflectors, stainless steel fittings, are about £25 a pair. A decent rear light is about £25. So your price window would be £25 to £50 (for a pair of mudguards).
Q1. A choice of constant or flashing would be good, unless it adds to the cost as that would need a switch. A standlight function would also be useful (the ability to remain on for, say, 60 seconds after the wheel stops rotating).
Q2. I've never seen panniers that obscure the mudguard from behind.
Q3. Yes, if it complied with BS and was comparably bright to other modern lights.
Q4. SKS mudguards with flaps and reflectors, stainless steel fittings, are about £25 a pair. A decent rear light is about £25. So your price window would be £25 to £50 (for a pair of mudguards).
Re: Some help required from commuters.
Just want to add that use of fibre optics could increase the size of a steady/always on light. These could be inset into the mudguard at the sides and shouldnt be too bright to distract. You could then add a brighter LED (say a P4 like Redeye's use) and use that off a capacitor to keep it steady and bright. Smaller power LEDs can be set to flash, I personally feel that flashing LEDs can sometimes be too bright.
IMO you do need to look at the Britist Standards, but also the German ones as they're superior for cycle lights. Have a look at the B&M dynamo with inbuilt reflectors, too for ideas.
Q1 - I'd prefer both flashing and constant modes simultaneously
Q2 - I do use panniers, many mudguards tend to stick out a little from behind. I counter side vis issues myself by wrapping reflective tape around the frame, wheels, etc.
Q3 - Most serious or experienced cyclists will tend to use a back up light too, so its not really an issue.
Q4 - My current mudguards were £30 SKS full guards, iirc. Most cyclists tend to spend about £20 on a rear light, so I'd say if its a good product it could retain for £40-50,if its really good then £60 imo.
IMO you do need to look at the Britist Standards, but also the German ones as they're superior for cycle lights. Have a look at the B&M dynamo with inbuilt reflectors, too for ideas.
Q1 - I'd prefer both flashing and constant modes simultaneously
Q2 - I do use panniers, many mudguards tend to stick out a little from behind. I counter side vis issues myself by wrapping reflective tape around the frame, wheels, etc.
Q3 - Most serious or experienced cyclists will tend to use a back up light too, so its not really an issue.
Q4 - My current mudguards were £30 SKS full guards, iirc. Most cyclists tend to spend about £20 on a rear light, so I'd say if its a good product it could retain for £40-50,if its really good then £60 imo.
Re: Some help required from commuters.
Thank you very much for all your responses, you are echoing some of the thoughts that I have had in regards to flashing + steady and the use of a capacitor to ensure that the lights stay on at traffic lights and stops. I have a stack of British standards next to me at the moment to make sure I stay within them so just need to get my hands on the German versions which I believe are the toughest in the world.
One thing I did forget to ask was about your commuting habits.
1. Where do you commute?
2. Do you commute on a daily basis?
3. How long is your commute?
4. From speaking to various people the feedback I got was that batteries running out was a real concern. Many carry spares and obviously if they conk out whilst cycling you have no idea this has happened until you stop. Is this an accurate picture of your commuting experience?
One thing I did forget to ask was about your commuting habits.
1. Where do you commute?
2. Do you commute on a daily basis?
3. How long is your commute?
4. From speaking to various people the feedback I got was that batteries running out was a real concern. Many carry spares and obviously if they conk out whilst cycling you have no idea this has happened until you stop. Is this an accurate picture of your commuting experience?
Re: Some help required from commuters.
I no longer comute. I used to commute daily by bike, in various places and for various distances.
For cycling in the dark, I use two rear and two front battery lights. This is especially for the rear, where I wouldn't know about a flat battery or other failure until I got squished by something.
For cycling in the dark, I use two rear and two front battery lights. This is especially for the rear, where I wouldn't know about a flat battery or other failure until I got squished by something.
Re: Some help required from commuters.
Q.1 I was thinking of having a large (50mm x 300mm) strip of constant red light on the rear mudguard, would you prefer a flashing mode?
Yep. Flashing rear, constant front.
Q.2 Do you use panniers and if so do they obscure any of the mudguard when viewed from behind?
Front bag on a Brompton, so no.
Q.3 Would you feel safe with only a large strip of light at the back of your bike?
Yes, but I would be concerned that a strip of light would lead to drivers percieving me to be a skiny upright object that didn't need much overtaking space. A sideways strip would be better, to make me seem wider.
Q.4 What would you be willing to pay for such a product?
Not sure what it is tbh, but if its a light for a mudguard and good, up to 40 quid considering my LED front light is £30 and good.
Yep. Flashing rear, constant front.
Q.2 Do you use panniers and if so do they obscure any of the mudguard when viewed from behind?
Front bag on a Brompton, so no.
Q.3 Would you feel safe with only a large strip of light at the back of your bike?
Yes, but I would be concerned that a strip of light would lead to drivers percieving me to be a skiny upright object that didn't need much overtaking space. A sideways strip would be better, to make me seem wider.
Q.4 What would you be willing to pay for such a product?
Not sure what it is tbh, but if its a light for a mudguard and good, up to 40 quid considering my LED front light is £30 and good.
Re: Some help required from commuters.
I'm answering as of a month ago...Brinkmant wrote:Thank you very much for all your responses, you are echoing some of the thoughts that I have had in regards to flashing + steady and the use of a capacitor to ensure that the lights stay on at traffic lights and stops. I have a stack of British standards next to me at the moment to make sure I stay within them so just need to get my hands on the German versions which I believe are the toughest in the world.
One thing I did forget to ask was about your commuting habits.
Through two towns, across a rural A road1. Where do you commute?
Yes2. Do you commute on a daily basis?
10 miles each way, 30-35 minutes3. How long is your commute?
4. From speaking to various people the feedback I got was that batteries running out was a real concern. Many carry spares and obviously if they conk out whilst cycling you have no idea this has happened until you stop. Is this an accurate picture of your commuting experience?
I had built my own lights, so they ran off a single battery pack - some front indication that the rear light has failed is good, I at least knew if the battery had died. (or I could look over my shoulder at the pool of red on the road...)
I'm also looking at dynamo systems / reelights now for my (shorter) commute. At least with the hour a day commute I was fairly deep cycling the batteries on a daily basis.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Re: Some help required from commuters.
Q.1 I was thinking of having a large (50mm x 300mm) strip of constant red light on the rear mudguard, would you prefer a flashing mode?
Don't care
Q.2 Do you use panniers and if so do they obscure any of the mudguard when viewed from behind?
Panniers, sometimes. Obscure mudguard no
Q.3 Would you feel safe with only a large strip of light at the back of your bike?
Yes. One bike (my audax events bike) I have has a mudguard mounted B&M Seculite Plus rear light and this is fine
Q.4 What would you be willing to pay for such a product?
£35
1. Where do you commute?
Devon Somerset border, to Taunton via lanes and the A38
2. Do you commute on a daily basis?
Yes, all year round
3. How long is your commute?
30 mile round trip
4. From speaking to various people the feedback I got was that batteries running out was a real concern. Many carry spares and obviously if they conk out whilst cycling you have no idea this has happened until you stop. Is this an accurate picture of your commuting experience?
Yes, I have had the rear light batteries fail and have had passing motorists tell me: I was unaware.
I have a frame mounted main light and a spare light clipped on the saddle bag to try and mitigate rear light failure
I have a generator (shimano wheel hub) powered front light and plan to fit a rear light powered by this as well
Don't care
Q.2 Do you use panniers and if so do they obscure any of the mudguard when viewed from behind?
Panniers, sometimes. Obscure mudguard no
Q.3 Would you feel safe with only a large strip of light at the back of your bike?
Yes. One bike (my audax events bike) I have has a mudguard mounted B&M Seculite Plus rear light and this is fine
Q.4 What would you be willing to pay for such a product?
£35
1. Where do you commute?
Devon Somerset border, to Taunton via lanes and the A38
2. Do you commute on a daily basis?
Yes, all year round
3. How long is your commute?
30 mile round trip
4. From speaking to various people the feedback I got was that batteries running out was a real concern. Many carry spares and obviously if they conk out whilst cycling you have no idea this has happened until you stop. Is this an accurate picture of your commuting experience?
Yes, I have had the rear light batteries fail and have had passing motorists tell me: I was unaware.
I have a frame mounted main light and a spare light clipped on the saddle bag to try and mitigate rear light failure
I have a generator (shimano wheel hub) powered front light and plan to fit a rear light powered by this as well
Re: Some help required from commuters.
Q.1 I was thinking of having a large (50mm x 300mm) strip of constant red light on the rear mudguard, would you prefer a flashing mode?
Absolutely fine either way, don't get hung up withe BS6102/3 or RVLR regulations as many of us use a cheap light that complies with this and our proper lighting (including such as yours) is a backup to this. If you label the package appropriately there should be no problem
Q.2 Do you use panniers and if so do they obscure any of the mudguard when viewed from behind?
There is some argument that lateral vision is good and so this should be considered. This will then depend on rack and panniers.
Q.3 Would you feel safe with only a large strip of light at the back of your bike?
Safe if bright enough, but as above don't get hung up with legality as you can sell as a backup system.
Q.4 What would you be willing to pay for such a product?
Depends on a balance of the light and mudguard. A good set of lights is about £25 and mudguards the same so a good quality of both - £ 50
One final point though is vibration, anything causing movement on a mudguard will be amplified due to its distance from the fixing point you will need secure fixings and strong stays.
Absolutely fine either way, don't get hung up withe BS6102/3 or RVLR regulations as many of us use a cheap light that complies with this and our proper lighting (including such as yours) is a backup to this. If you label the package appropriately there should be no problem
Q.2 Do you use panniers and if so do they obscure any of the mudguard when viewed from behind?
There is some argument that lateral vision is good and so this should be considered. This will then depend on rack and panniers.
Q.3 Would you feel safe with only a large strip of light at the back of your bike?
Safe if bright enough, but as above don't get hung up with legality as you can sell as a backup system.
Q.4 What would you be willing to pay for such a product?
Depends on a balance of the light and mudguard. A good set of lights is about £25 and mudguards the same so a good quality of both - £ 50
One final point though is vibration, anything causing movement on a mudguard will be amplified due to its distance from the fixing point you will need secure fixings and strong stays.
Re: Some help required from commuters.
Sounds like an interesting project.
I think at that size constant would be ok.
It is worth considering having the light so it can be seen from other angles than directly behind.
would the strip be vertical or horizontal ?
Yes, and they don't cover the read mudguard.
No, not in city traffic. I prefer a light high up on either my helmet or jacket which is eye level to drivers, this is in addition to the rack mounted lights I currently have.
On country roads I think it would be fine as long as it is bright enough and can be seen from a great distance.
£50 seems a reasonable price as suggested by other posters.
Although I already have decent mud guards on my bike so my choice would be £20 for a decent light or £50 for integrated mudguards and light. The tight yorkshire man in me would ask why am I paying for a new pair of mud guards when mine are perfectly serviceable? Would you consider inventing an add on to existing mudguards ?
At the moment I am not comuting due to an attack of lazyitus but when I do my journey is 12 miles along unlit country roads, old railway line path and about 2 miles in the town. I also have a steep hill to go up where my speed drops to barely walking pace so the light should work at slow speeds as well.
Good luck with the project
Brinkmant wrote:Q.1 I was thinking of having a large (50mm x 300mm) strip of constant red light on the rear mudguard, would you prefer a flashing mode?
I think at that size constant would be ok.
It is worth considering having the light so it can be seen from other angles than directly behind.
would the strip be vertical or horizontal ?
Brinkmant wrote:
Q.2 Do you use panniers and if so do they obscure any of the mudguard when viewed from behind?
Yes, and they don't cover the read mudguard.
Brinkmant wrote:
Q.3 Would you feel safe with only a large strip of light at the back of your bike?
No, not in city traffic. I prefer a light high up on either my helmet or jacket which is eye level to drivers, this is in addition to the rack mounted lights I currently have.
On country roads I think it would be fine as long as it is bright enough and can be seen from a great distance.
Brinkmant wrote:
Q.4 What would you be willing to pay for such a product?
£50 seems a reasonable price as suggested by other posters.
Although I already have decent mud guards on my bike so my choice would be £20 for a decent light or £50 for integrated mudguards and light. The tight yorkshire man in me would ask why am I paying for a new pair of mud guards when mine are perfectly serviceable? Would you consider inventing an add on to existing mudguards ?
At the moment I am not comuting due to an attack of lazyitus but when I do my journey is 12 miles along unlit country roads, old railway line path and about 2 miles in the town. I also have a steep hill to go up where my speed drops to barely walking pace so the light should work at slow speeds as well.
Good luck with the project
Re: Some help required from commuters.
Q.1 I was thinking of having a large (50mm x 300mm) strip of constant red light on the rear mudguard, would you prefer a flashing mode? Personally, as something like this would be a backup light for me, I would prefer flashing. My lighting preferences are to have a bright and solid rear light, supplemented by cheaper and less reliable flashing lights. For instance, I currently have a rack-based solid light, supplemented by a couple of the Tesco £5.50 rear lights as necessary. As a mudguard-based lighting system wouldn't (I don't think) meet the BS standards for an actual rear light, I would quite like it to supplement the 'add visibility' section of my rear lighting.
Q.2 Do you use panniers and if so do they obscure any of the mudguard when viewed from behind? I do. They (and the rack) probably obscure the top part of my mudguards-- say, from 10-2 o'clock...
Q.3 Would you feel safe with only a large strip of light at the back of your bike? No. While I would consider buying such a product, it would be supplementary lighting for me. As I have never actually purchased mudguards on their own, I would probably be more likely to buy strip lighting on its own that I could add to existing mudguards.
Q.4 What would you be willing to pay for such a product? As mentioned, probably in the £35 range.
1. Where do you commute? Cambridge
2. Do you commute on a daily basis? Yes
3. How long is your commute? 20 minutes each way, currently
4. From speaking to various people the feedback I got was that batteries running out was a real concern. Many carry spares and obviously if they conk out whilst cycling you have no idea this has happened until you stop. Is this an accurate picture of your commuting experience? As mentioned, I try to have built in redundancy-- I have a couple of rear lights, one that I consider to be my primary light, and the others are icing on the cake. However, if any of them fail, I expect that the others could manage on their own.
Q.2 Do you use panniers and if so do they obscure any of the mudguard when viewed from behind? I do. They (and the rack) probably obscure the top part of my mudguards-- say, from 10-2 o'clock...
Q.3 Would you feel safe with only a large strip of light at the back of your bike? No. While I would consider buying such a product, it would be supplementary lighting for me. As I have never actually purchased mudguards on their own, I would probably be more likely to buy strip lighting on its own that I could add to existing mudguards.
Q.4 What would you be willing to pay for such a product? As mentioned, probably in the £35 range.
1. Where do you commute? Cambridge
2. Do you commute on a daily basis? Yes
3. How long is your commute? 20 minutes each way, currently
4. From speaking to various people the feedback I got was that batteries running out was a real concern. Many carry spares and obviously if they conk out whilst cycling you have no idea this has happened until you stop. Is this an accurate picture of your commuting experience? As mentioned, I try to have built in redundancy-- I have a couple of rear lights, one that I consider to be my primary light, and the others are icing on the cake. However, if any of them fail, I expect that the others could manage on their own.