Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

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nortones2
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby nortones2 » 28 Nov 2011, 3:18pm

As thirdcrank has hinted, it seems this PC is one who has a much greater arrest rate than par. I'd seen his profile before. It might therefore be a targeted hit. Adds another dimension to the investigation perhaps.

pete75
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby pete75 » 28 Nov 2011, 8:01pm

Si wrote:Would someone like to cite the details of any particular case where this particular force has devoted noticeably less effort to a similar cycling-related event where the injured party was not a member of the force? Just so that we can deal with facts rather than speculation?

Whether or not it is the case that they are making extra efforts because it is "one of their own" I really do not know, however on a forum where any perceived anti-cycling comment is oft greeted with demands for real proof and data, it does seem a little odd that comment about the police is so often based on imagination and speculation. I am not defending the police, rather I'd just like to see them hung for a crime that they have been proven to have done, not just because they are the police.

Additionally, I'd also spare a thought for the poor bloke (and his friends and family) who was the victim of the hit and run in this case - policeman or not, I think that we'll all agree that he didn't deserve it and we all wish him a speedy recovery.


You may have a point but there are numerous examples on this forum alone of police taking little or no action over cyclist injuries on the road particularly where there are no other witnesses. I have the impression that the police are loath to spend time investigating incidents where they need to put in a deal of effort to find out what happened. Someone I know very well was knocked off his bike by a hit and run driver about six years ago. Left severely injured on the side of the road he was found by a milkman going to work at 4 o'clock in the morning and had been there from around midnight. In hospital for 3 weeks and off work for 3 months during which time he had a visit from one constable who asked him if he could give any details of the vehicle that hit him. When he said he couldn't the officer said give us a call if you remember anything and that was the end of the matter.


For those who say perhaps we should mention our jobs to be criticised all I'd say is that through income tax,various purchase taxes and council tax I pay a fair bit of money for the police to provide me with a service as does every other taxpayer. This gives us the right to crticise if we don't feel we're getting a decent service. By the same token a police officer has no right to criticise the way I or the organisation I'm employed by do our work as they do not pay us to provide them with a service.

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby hubgearfreak » 28 Nov 2011, 8:39pm

pete75 wrote:Someone I know very well was knocked off his bike by a hit and run driver about six years ago. Left severely injured on the side of the road he was found by a milkman going to work at 4 o'clock in the morning and had been there from around midnight. In hospital for 3 weeks and off work for 3 months during which time he had a visit from one constable who asked him if he could give any details of the vehicle that hit him. When he said he couldn't the officer said give us a call if you remember anything and that was the end of the matter.


i had hoped that this sort of story wouldn't exist, having only had bikes broken, or known only of friend's bikes being broken in 'collisions/accidents'. i supposed that they'd pull their finger out if ever i got porperly hurt

that this sad tale exists only dissapoints rather than surprises me :(

i do sometimes wonder whether the government and the police realise that they're there to serve us who pay their wages, rather than control those who've they got power over.

thirdcrank
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Nov 2011, 8:58pm

There's often very little that can be done in the way of enquiries after a collision where a driver does not stop. The term hit-and-run can be a bit of a misnomer in that the driver's explanation is often that they did not know a collision had occurred. Like it or not, it's very difficult, for example, to convince a bench of magistrates (beyoyond reasonable doubt, remember) that the driver of an HGV knew there had been a collision, unless the vehicle was almost undriveable. Of course, that's no reason not to try.

Good witnesses are worth their weight in gold, but usually more able to explain what happened than to record the reg plate accurately. Many witnesses simply don't want to get involved. On the other hand, there are some people who regularly reply to appeals for witnesses as some sort of hobby.

The débris at the scene, nowadays routinely gathered by specialists when a collision is KSI, can reveal a lot of info, expecially if the vehicle is car-sized, when all sorts of fragments are likely to be left. Knowing that the vehicle was, say, a Ford Focus, built between 2006 and 2010 in metallic silver leaves a lot of cars in the frame.

Even with more evidence, there can be problems. Here's a hit-and-run anecdote from my unpublished memoirs. This was damage only, and relatively minor at that, so not the type of thing we have been discussing above. The owner of a rather tumbledown wall in an unusually rural part of Leeds 12 (ie green belt) was upset that the police had done nothing about a car crashing into their wall. In fact, I discovered there had been two, separate, collisions. Following one, the police had chased the fugitive on foot for some distance through fields etc and locked him up. They had been unable to trace the owner of the wall, which in the circumstances was unsurprising because they lived some miles away. Anyway, the vehicle in the second collision had driven off, leaving behind 2/3 of the front reg plate. A clue if ever there was one. This was one with the year letter on the end so even in 1995 or thereabouts it was at least some 15 years old. We had all the first three letters and a number, so it might have had no year letter at all, of course, which would have made it even older. The first three letters formed a word so they were cherished-plate material. By coincidence, I used to ride that way to work and I knew that there was a car with those three letters regularly parked outside one of the nearest houses to the scene, about a quarter of a mile away. I recovered the plate from the store, ready to make my name :roll: but the single number we had showed it was a different vehicle. A PNC check then showed that there were so many cars up and down the country with cherished plates with those three letters (25 - 30 is the number that comes to mind) that I decided that for a minor damage-only collision, I wasn't going to send enquiries to all those different police forces asking for all the cars to be checked. IIRC, a further complaint, this time about me, that was rejected by the PCC, as it used to be then.

irc
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby irc » 28 Nov 2011, 9:27pm

Ian Raleigh wrote:Just read this in our local paper and it seems the local Police force are out in force to catch the driver.

Shame they can't do the same for the 'everyday' ped' / biker :roll:

http://www.chad.co.uk/news/local/cyclis ... _1_4008546


So it's being investigated by a part of the traffic dept and there has been a press release done. Just like any other hit and run RTA involving serious injuries in my experience.

A quick search on BBC news also brings up press releases for hit and runs involving swans, other animals, parked cars, other members of the public etc. I don't see any special treatment here.
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

karlt
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby karlt » 28 Nov 2011, 9:52pm

hubgearfreak wrote:
pete75 wrote:Someone I know very well was knocked off his bike by a hit and run driver about six years ago. Left severely injured on the side of the road he was found by a milkman going to work at 4 o'clock in the morning and had been there from around midnight. In hospital for 3 weeks and off work for 3 months during which time he had a visit from one constable who asked him if he could give any details of the vehicle that hit him. When he said he couldn't the officer said give us a call if you remember anything and that was the end of the matter.


i had hoped that this sort of story wouldn't exist, having only had bikes broken, or known only of friend's bikes being broken in 'collisions/accidents'. i supposed that they'd pull their finger out if ever i got porperly hurt

that this sad tale exists only dissapoints rather than surprises me :(

i do sometimes wonder whether the government and the police realise that they're there to serve us who pay their wages, rather than control those who've they got power over.


Exactly what leads do you imagine the police would actually have to go on here? Where do you propose they should start? Examine every car in a 20 mile radius for forensic evidence?

reohn2
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby reohn2 » 28 Nov 2011, 10:11pm

By contrast :-
Case No1.
Mrs R2 and myself following an incident(close overtake when I shouted) were first threatened with violence,then reversed at,at speed,the car stopping within a foot of the front wheel of the tandem.
I reported it to the police a PC came to our house and took a statement,gave me an incident number and confidently announced that they would have the culprit on at least two serious offences,threatening behaviour and dangerous driving.
They had a full and accurate description of the vehicle and reg no.
A full and accurate description of the driver down to the number of zits on his face.

The sergent in charge told me when I enquired of any developements some two weeks later,that they couldn't find the whereabouts of the car as it was "in the trade"(tosh IMO), I asked if they asked the last known owner who they'd sold it to that,that maybe a source of enquiry and that at some point it would be sold on, the next owner could tell them who they'd bought it off.
He agreed.
Two more weeks later and the sergent told me that the case was closed,when I asked about the lines of enquiry we'd spoken about previously he couldn't give me any reason that they hadn't followed up on them.
End of case.

Case No2
After a close overtake (again on the tandem) the driver then waited in a side road further on, only to do it again.this time I slapped the car,he stopped,I parked the tandem across the front of his car and left Mrs R2 with the bike,on approaching the vehicle to my amazement, I found this man had two small children sat one in the front seat aged about 7,and one in the rear aged about 5.He had the window open about 2inches raving at me like a madman,I was asking him to carm down for his children's sake,who were visibly upset.
At this point a police car came past and I flagged it down,explained what had happened and that I'd slapped the car and why.
They had a word with the driver,then came and told me that I could be in serious trouble if I'd caused any damage to the car,I held my hands out and asked them to arrest me if they thought I'd broken any laws.They declined.

Case No3
After having a sandwich thrown from a car window at us during a very close and fast overtake,I reported the incident due to its potentially dangerous consequences,with vehicle reg no and description,to my knowledge no further action was taken despite me making enquires of any developements.

Case No4
After being slowely and closely overtaken I slapped a car, the driver stopped and some punches were exchanged,he coming off worst.
I made a note of the reg no and reported the incident,no car of that reg no exists I was told( I was sure of the reg as it was a short 5digit personlised number) nothing was done,but I did get a a call some three weeks later from a "victim of crime" councilor asking me if i'd got over my "ordeal" she was a bit taken aback when I explained that I'd get over it quicker if people in the Cheshire and Great Manchester police force got off their backsides and did some policing.

Case No5
There is a great deal of dangerous parking adjacent to a row of shops near to where we live.I thought I'd let the police know that someone would get hurt and it would most likely be one of the school children who frequent the shops on their way to and from school.
The response was if I could have a walk round there and take down some reg no's or better still photograph the offenders cars then email them to the officer,he would then send them each a letter issuing them with a warning,he was surprised when I asked him who was the policeman,me or him.
How the police expect anyone to have any respect or confidence in them is simply beyond me.

I'm very saddened to hear of PC Coetzee(I'm familiar with his sterling service and I wish there were more like him out there) being run down in what could be a deliberate act.
I hope he makes a full recover and I hope they catch the culprit,but if they are as efficient as Greater Manchester and Cheshire police theres very little hope :|
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

pete75
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby pete75 » 28 Nov 2011, 10:15pm

karlt wrote:
hubgearfreak wrote:
pete75 wrote:Someone I know very well was knocked off his bike by a hit and run driver about six years ago. Left severely injured on the side of the road he was found by a milkman going to work at 4 o'clock in the morning and had been there from around midnight. In hospital for 3 weeks and off work for 3 months during which time he had a visit from one constable who asked him if he could give any details of the vehicle that hit him. When he said he couldn't the officer said give us a call if you remember anything and that was the end of the matter.


i had hoped that this sort of story wouldn't exist, having only had bikes broken, or known only of friend's bikes being broken in 'collisions/accidents'. i supposed that they'd pull their finger out if ever i got porperly hurt

that this sad tale exists only dissapoints rather than surprises me :(

i do sometimes wonder whether the government and the police realise that they're there to serve us who pay their wages, rather than control those who've they got power over.


Exactly what leads do you imagine the police would actually have to go on here? Where do you propose they should start? Examine every car in a 20 mile radius for forensic evidence?


Maybe put out a press release to see if anyone had seen it or had any info , maybe examine the accident scene for forensic evidence......

pete75
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby pete75 » 28 Nov 2011, 10:17pm

irc wrote:
Ian Raleigh wrote:Just read this in our local paper and it seems the local Police force are out in force to catch the driver.

Shame they can't do the same for the 'everyday' ped' / biker :roll:

http://www.chad.co.uk/news/local/cyclis ... _1_4008546


So it's being investigated by a part of the traffic dept and there has been a press release done. Just like any other hit and run RTA involving serious injuries in my experience.



Actually it's being investigated by CID according to the story linked to.

thirdcrank
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Nov 2011, 10:31pm

pete75 wrote: ... Actually it's being investigated by CID according to the story linked to.


Yes. With a detective sergeant as the investigating officer. Afaik, that's part of the Brunstrom policy to ensure a KSI investigation is conducted in the same way as serious crime more generally. Going only on another thread about a fatal collision, the investigating officer was a detective chief inspector. (That case did receive publicity because that officer himself was later acquitted of a serious - unrelated - offence offence, but that does indicate that this approach to collision investigation is not unique.)

karlt
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby karlt » 28 Nov 2011, 10:58pm

pete75 wrote:
karlt wrote:
hubgearfreak wrote:
i had hoped that this sort of story wouldn't exist, having only had bikes broken, or known only of friend's bikes being broken in 'collisions/accidents'. i supposed that they'd pull their finger out if ever i got porperly hurt

that this sad tale exists only dissapoints rather than surprises me :(

i do sometimes wonder whether the government and the police realise that they're there to serve us who pay their wages, rather than control those who've they got power over.


Exactly what leads do you imagine the police would actually have to go on here? Where do you propose they should start? Examine every car in a 20 mile radius for forensic evidence?


Maybe put out a press release to see if anyone had seen it or had any info , maybe examine the accident scene for forensic evidence......


Without knowing the details - perhaps the scene had already been examined and there was nothing to see? As thirdcrank has said, unless you've got a bloody great chunk of number plate it's hard to imagine what forensic evidence you're expecting to find. IME, the police normally do appeal for evidence whenever there's a hit and run, regardless of who's been injured.

pete75
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby pete75 » 28 Nov 2011, 11:18pm

karlt wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Maybe put out a press release to see if anyone had seen it or had any info , maybe examine the accident scene for forensic evidence......


Without knowing the details - perhaps the scene had already been examined and there was nothing to see? As thirdcrank has said, unless you've got a bloody great chunk of number plate it's hard to imagine what forensic evidence you're expecting to find. IME, the police normally do appeal for evidence whenever there's a hit and run, regardless of who's been injured.


I do know the details and it wasn't nor was there any appeal for evidence.
They haven't got " a bloody great chunk of number plate" in the case referred to by the OP but I bet the bits of stuff they have got is being examined by forensics.

thirdcrank
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Nov 2011, 11:34pm

pete75 wrote: .... nor was there any appeal for evidence....
How can know that? It may be that none was published by the media, but that's the fate of many police police press releases, even in connection with serious matters. Unless there's an editorial "angle" they are often just ignored. I've prepared countless press releases appealing for witnesses and many never even made the local rag. They are looking for actresses and bishops, vicars and choirboys, pitbull terriers, premiership footballers and their managers and people like l'il ole me (especially if I took to wearing suspenders.) Hard as it may be to accept, unless you are in one of their target groups, they are not very much interested in people like l'il ole you. Even in full fancy dress :wink:

pete75
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby pete75 » 29 Nov 2011, 12:32am

We knew there was no appeal for evidence because we enquired what they'd done about the case and the answer was very little apart from the one enquiry I mentioned.

The local papers round here appear to publish any appeals for evidence the police ask them to - there's so little going on you might see a story about a tractor being broken into and radio stolen on the front page!!

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Off duty copper gets knocked off his bike. Hit n run.

Postby hubgearfreak » 29 Nov 2011, 5:22am

thirdcrank wrote:Knowing that the vehicle was, say, a Ford Focus, built between 2006 and 2010 in metallic silver leaves a lot of cars in the frame.


that's something else that had crossed my mind. the incident in the OP mentioned paint and headlights glass, but only asks for a silver car. surely they can work out more than that?

was none of this detritus left at pete75's friends crashsite?

TC, i'm always fascinated by your tales of policing, but the response to damage to a garden wall isn't comparable to seriously injured people