Pass Wide & Slow

[Manx Cat]

This post reminded me of a much tubbier time in my life.

I used to breed and break in Highland ponies. I wore a tabard with the words

Pass

Wide and slow
(Centered font)


Cept my long ponytail covered the first bit...


HOw many car drivers wound down to point this out to me!

Look up Highland ponies -we were well suited to one another.

[Ayesha]

Horse riders have the advantage that any motoring transgressor knows he may get his pride and joy kicked in so he's going to give them a wide berth anyway. Maybe we should start rearing up, prancing, snorting and kicking when someone passes too close?

How does that differ from cyclists?

[[XAP]Bob]

Horse riders have the advantage that any motoring transgressor knows he may get his pride and joy kicked in so he's going to give them a wide berth anyway. Maybe we should start rearing up, prancing, snorting and kicking when someone passes too close?

How does that differ from cyclists?

I can't put a couple of tons behind a horseshoe...
I'd be held responsible for kicking a car*...


*Note that a driver accused me of kicking their car once. I pointed out to the police that they'd driven into my hand, and that I couldn't have kicked the car - I was clipped in to spds....

[Ayesha]

Horse riders have the advantage that any motoring transgressor knows he may get his pride and joy kicked in so he's going to give them a wide berth anyway. Maybe we should start rearing up, prancing, snorting and kicking when someone passes too close?

How does that differ from cyclists?

I can't put a couple of tons behind a horseshoe...
I'd be held responsible for kicking a car*...


*Note that a driver accused me of kicking their car once. I pointed out to the police that they'd driven into my hand, and that I couldn't have kicked the car - I was clipped in to spds....

There was a thread recently about the pros and cons of 'slapping' a close passing car.

There were a range of opinions.

I was against it, but it was seen that many saw it as a 'self defence' mechanism.

Although totally against my beliefs, if motorists think a cyclist will strike out at their car if the pass close, maybe close passes wouldn't happen so often.

The horse, is only kicking to protect its rear quarter. A natural reaction. Likewise, a sudden thrust of the glove or shoe could be deemed a 'natural reaction' to protect a cyclist's rear quarter.

Is it to be expected?

I think that other thread was left somewhat "Do what you think best depending on the situation", but carrying a jousting lance was OUT!

[[XAP]Bob]

There was a thread recently about the pros and cons of 'slapping' a close passing car.

There were a range of opinions.

I was against it, but it was seen that many saw it as a 'self defence' mechanism.

Although totally against my beliefs, if motorists think a cyclist will strike out at their car if the pass close, maybe close passes wouldn't happen so often.

The horse, is only kicking to protect its rear quarter. A natural reaction. Likewise, a sudden thrust of the glove or shoe could be deemed a 'natural reaction' to protect a cyclist's rear quarter.

Is it to be expected?

I do (did, it's not an issue on a 'bent) slap wing mirrors. The police backed me on that action on the various occasions it's happened with the exception of me tapping a mirror on re-passing a car which had just overtaken murderously close after revving and hooting. (And that was a tap, not a slap)

[byegad]

Imagine this. Two riders, one of a horse, the other a cycle, are both in court to see the drivers who passed so close that they struck and injured them on trial for the incident.

The same Judge, one of the 'great and good' of this country hears both cases one after the other.
1. What are the chances both drivers get the same penalty?
2. How likely is it that the judge knows either rider, or someone closely related to them?
3. How likely is it that the judge is a horse rider him or herself?
4 How likely is it that the Judge is a cyclist?

British law existed for centuries solely to protect those with power, money and influence. Can anyone really, hand on heart say this has changed?
Finally, what is the chosen sport of the landed gentry, who still exist, cycling or horse riding in one form or another?

[Ayesha]

Imagine this. Two riders, one of a horse, the other a cycle, are both in court to see the drivers who passed so close that they struck and injured them on trial for the incident.

The same Judge, one of the 'great and good' of this country hears both cases one after the other.
1. What are the chances both drivers get the same penalty?
2. How likely is it that the judge knows either rider, or someone closely related to them?
3. How likely is it that the judge is a horse rider him or herself?
4 How likely is it that the Judge is a cyclist?

British law existed for centuries solely to protect those with power, money and influence. Can anyone really, hand on heart say this has changed?
Finally, what is the chosen sport of the landed gentry, who still exist, cycling or horse riding in one form or another?

Sports car racing.

[thirdcrank]

I wish I could find that old BBC Public Service Film with drawings by Thelwell and a poem spoken by Frank Muir. I can still remember bits of it:

Oh, motorists, it's dangerous
Passing nervous beasts like us -
Flapping canvas, brakes that squeal,
The nervous movement of the wheel
...
The noise and fuss of all that speed
Would terrify the fiercest steed
...
We ask your help, we ask your care
Be kind to horses, everywhere.


Perhaps a latter-day Thelwell with a crafty pencil might be persuaded to produce a parallel video for cyclists. With a suitable doggerel accompaniment, it might be persuaded to go modestly viral on YouTube.

Sorry I can't help with the film, but this is a link to the Country Code posters, illustrated by Thelwell which used to adorn YHA's when I was a young person of limited means etc etc.

http://countryfriend.co.uk/thelwellcartoons.aspx

I found your post when looking for an earlier one of mine on this subject. I was think about the Tiree thread and here's my revised doggerel for the "Go carefully on country roads" verse:-

Forget hay wains and sleepy yokels,
Gang warily!
Defer to locals.

[bevblade]

This may be slightly off topic so apologies!

I was driving my car through a busy town a few weeks ago (sometimes have to!) I came across a group of cyclists travelling in single file but leaving no gaps between any of them, a long line of over 20 cyclists. I followed them at a slow pace for a while ( a couple of miles) then went to overtake them all when the opportunity arose. Unfortunately, white van man decided to stop on our side of the road and another vehicle was comeing towards me. I had to slow down, causing the last four cyclists to slow / stop, one of whom slapped my car for impeding his way.

Now my question is, when travelling with a fairly large group of cyclists should the group allow gaps at various intervals when cycling on busy town centre streets? The largest group I cycle with consists of about six people and we always leave gaps between us so that any vehicle can overtake at least half of us at a time. Is this good practice or should we ignore the motor vehicles?

Being a fairly commited cyclist (except for this recent cold weather) I try to drive cycle friendly. However, on this occasion I did feel that I was being unjustifiably maligned. Yes, I could have waited until we'd cleared the town centre which would have meant driving at about 15 m.p.h. for another mile at least. If the cycling group had left a couple of gaps over the length of the 20 plus cycles, I and other traffic could have passed through withour incident. But then, I may have been unnecessaruly impatient.

Views anyone?

[[XAP]Bob]

This may be slightly off topic so apologies!

I was driving my car through a busy town a few weeks ago (sometimes have to!) I came across a group of cyclists travelling in single file but leaving no gaps between any of them, a long line of over 20 cyclists. I followed them at a slow pace for a while ( a couple of miles) then went to overtake them all when the opportunity arose. Unfortunately, white van man decided to stop on our side of the road and another vehicle was comeing towards me. I had to slow down, causing the last four cyclists to slow / stop, one of whom slapped my car for impeding his way.

Now my question is, when travelling with a fairly large group of cyclists should the group allow gaps at various intervals when cycling on busy town centre streets? The largest group I cycle with consists of about six people and we always leave gaps between us so that any vehicle can overtake at least half of us at a time. Is this good practice or should we ignore the motor vehicles?

Being a fairly commited cyclist (except for this recent cold weather) I try to drive cycle friendly. However, on this occasion I did feel that I was being unjustifiably maligned. Yes, I could have waited until we'd cleared the town centre which would have meant driving at about 15 m.p.h. for another mile at least. If the cycling group had left a couple of gaps over the length of the 20 plus cycles, I and other traffic could have passed through withour incident. But then, I may have been unnecessaruly impatient.

Views anyone?

It's very difficult to overtake any long vehicle (which a line of cyclists effectively becomes)
However as cyclists are normally berated (including revving engines and liberal use of the horn) for riding two abreast (when they would still be narrower than a car) so they often "single out".

You've just hit the other problem this causes.


In town I tend to find that a bike is quicker than a car anyway, so it's no great trial to stay behind them. However that depends on a variety of factors.

I'd generally expect that any road user would leave room for other vehicles - but it's almost never done (particularly not on motorways).
If you can pull alongside them at lights and ask them to consider how long a vehicle they are in a calm an non confrontational manner then you might get some response, but I'd not hold my breath...

[horizon]

bevblade: my first take on this is to sympathise - they could have usefully split up (riding two abreast would have been better from the POV of overtaking). Having said that you have very honestly admitted that you were looking at one mile at 15 mph. Given that you may have met more traffic later on, it probably wasn't a long time to wait - in fact better than average speed in towns. My point therefore is: most motorists (but not necessarily you) have absurd expectations about speed in towns (what's wrong with 15 mph?????) and their annoyance has nothing to do with reality - it is purely the feeling of being held up, which is a psychological problem not a traffic problem.

[tatanab]

Now my question is, when travelling with a fairly large group of cyclists should the group allow gaps at various intervals when cycling on busy town centre streets?

Note "should" is an expression of desirability it is not a compulsion such as "must". People of all transport preferences "should" do an aweful lot of things that they simply do not.

In this case the desired effect is to not slow the motor traffic too much. My reason for forming smaller groups would be because somebody 4 or 5 cars back down the line is likely to make a punishment pass which we really do not want. So, yes I would probably form smaller groups, but you say this was in a busy town so it is unlikely that the motorists could sensibly go much faster anyway. Going back to "should" - if the motorists are in such a hurry should they not have avoided the busy town? Obviously I am being deliberately obtuse there, but I would still be in a smaller group, and likely travelling faster to get the heck away from the traffic congestion.

A question - if you form smaller groups, what distance do you leave between the groups? You need to allow adequate space for the passing motorist (car or 40 foot lorry) to slow down and drop into that gap.

[snibgo]

If the cyclists do split into groups and a car overtakes to slot between them, should the group at the back drop back further to allow more cars through? Then where does it end?

I don't know the answer. I've only ridden once in a large group. It was a few hundred strong. We naturally split into riders of different speeds, so each group was perhaps 20 cyclists. Cars had problems getting past each group. I wanted to tell impatient drivers that if they got past us, they would shortly find another group ahead.

[Pete Owens]

The other aspect of this is that a line of 20 cyclists riding through a town is a very rare occurrence - yet seems to always cause a debate about how they should arrange themselves to avoid the slightest possibility of delaying a motorists progress to the next traffic light.

On the other hand a line of 20 (or 40 or 100...) cars driving in single file through a busy town is not in the slightest bit unusual and can often delay cyclists progress where the lanes are too narrow to overtake. Yet for some reason it is never suggested that these drivers should split themselves into small groups to assist cyclists to overtake.

[reohn2]

The other aspect of this is that a line of 20 cyclists riding through a town is a very rare occurrence - yet seems to always cause a debate about how they should arrange themselves to avoid the slightest possibility of delaying a motorists progress to the next traffic light.

On the other hand a line of 20 (or 40 or 100...) cars driving in single file through a busy town is not in the slightest bit unusual and can often delay cyclists progress where the lanes are too narrow to overtake. Yet for some reason it is never suggested that these drivers should split themselves into small groups to assist cyclists to overtake.

Spot on.