guttersnipe

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Vorpal
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby Vorpal » 17 Jan 2012, 7:25am

Cycling a foot from the kerb is common practice, and not a reason to call someone a troll.

To the vast majority of people, cyclists and non-cyclists alike, cycling a foot from the kerb is perfectly acceptable practice. The majority of cyclists I see and know do this. The proportion of cyclists who use a stronger road position is higher amongst the club cyclists of my acquaintance. But I know less than a dozen cyclists (outside of the good folks on this forum) who know and consistently apply the principles described in Cyclecraft, and some of those are Bikeability instructors.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

ronyrash
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby ronyrash » 18 Jan 2012, 5:41pm

my latest post last week as gone missing.from memory i will try to repeat.
after looking thru the latest post i am impressed and appreciate the insights and the dilligent hard work it as taken to express them.but let the facts speak for themselves.is there a register somewhere of cycle/motor vehicle collisions? [ie distance from safe kerb [roadside]area if not there dam well ought to be in this age of computors,then cyclist can form an informed opinionon road positioning [make up there own minds not simply accepting what people are saying.]oot.out of time again.

snibgo
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby snibgo » 18 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Your post is still there, on page 2, as is my reply.

stork
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby stork » 18 Jan 2012, 8:23pm

Vorpal wrote:Cycling a foot from the kerb is common practice


Yes, it certainly is, although not good practice (I don't think you're suggesting that it is). The commonness of the practice probably has a lot to do with the content of cycle training until the past few years, and hopefully the impact of Bikeability will come through over time. Sadly, some local authorities still promote gutter cycling.

I can't understand how anyone, particularly club cyclists (who are probaby faster than the average cyclist) think that 1 ft from the kerb is generally OK. I'd find it terrifying to ride at 25-30 mph that close to the kerb, amongst debris and near to drain gratings. At slower speeds, e.g. on an uphill stretch, then closer to the kerb to allow overtaking where safe (i.e. secondary position, maybe 50cm-1m, or 2-3ft from the kerb) might be quite sensible.

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CREPELLO
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby CREPELLO » 18 Jan 2012, 8:43pm

It's blindingly clear to me that if I cycle in the gutter I will have little chance to correct any deviations I may have to make, if I come off the edge of the road. The road edge is often broken up, so a fall is more likely there. This is doubly so at night.

What about gravel accumulation, which is far more likely at the side of the road?

What about drain covers, which are often badly repaired. Do I take my chances over every one of these?

What about town cycling? The kerb presents a hazard if I should cycle too near to it. More importantly, pedestrians are liable to walk near the kerb, or step out onto the road. Shall I slow to a snail's pace and warn each ped that I'm about to pass?

Ronyrash, you should be aware that the proportion of cyclists hit by other traffic from behind is about 4-6% (off the top of my head) of all KSI's. So I don't think that the problem (of getting hit) is as great as you suggest. Of course, I don't know what proportion of those hit by vehicles were gutter hugging or secondary positioned (or primary even). But I'm with the others on this one for the countless reasons outlined above.

snibgo
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby snibgo » 18 Jan 2012, 9:40pm

As Oscar Wilde nearly said, "We may cycle in the gutter, but some of us will see stars."

ronyrash
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby ronyrash » 23 Jan 2012, 7:09pm

John Holiday wrote:We teach children to ride 'defensively' & that includes riding about a metre from the kerb (secondary position).
This means that on most roads a driver will have to make a concious decision to pull out & around the cyclist.
Should the driver still come too close,then at least the cyclist has some space on his left to move into safely,& not clatter the kerb.
We also emphasise the need to keep a constant 'look behind' so that one is aware of approaching traffic.A mirror often makes this easier.
Correct positioning in the road is a vital part of safe cycling.
Riding alongside the kerb simply invites drivers to push past without varying their line.

iv just lost a 2hour posting i will repeat from memory in the half hour available to me.in recent years stuned by the by the idiocentric dangerous behavior of some cyclist[?] and such outfits as cyclecraft and bikeability [mainly academics limited exposure to machinery]seem to be responsable as exsemplified by the above post[with all due respect].i am alarmed by the terminology -
1/riding defensivly [my view take as much space away for the traffic as circumstances allow.]
2/the driver will make the consious decision[never assum that a driver will make a concious decision]
3/an experianced guttersnipe .oot

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meic
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby meic » 23 Jan 2012, 7:39pm

cyclecraft and bikeability [mainly academics limited exposure to machinery


I wonder where you get that idea from?

I cant speak for them but I can speak of the roadcraft which they are the children of, so to speak.

Roadcraft came directly from the experience of real life very experienced Police Motorists and after its introduction for motorcyclists it reduced the crash rate from an average of every 7,000 miles to every 70,000 miles.

It was totally empirically based from VERY experienced road users (but only of the motorised type I am sad to say.)
Yma o Hyd

ronyrash
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby ronyrash » 24 Jan 2012, 5:04pm

CREPELLO wrote:It's blindingly clear to me that if I cycle in the gutter I will have little chance to correct any deviations I may have to make, if I come off the edge of the road. The road edge is often broken up, so a fall is more likely there. This is doubly so at night.

What about gravel accumulation, which is far more likely at the side of the road?

What about drain covers, which are often badly repaired. Do I take my chances over every one of these?

What about town cycling? The kerb presents a hazard if I should cycle too near to it. More importantly, pedestrians are liable to walk near the kerb, or step out onto the road. Shall I slow to a snail's pace and warn each ped that I'm about to pass?

Ronyrash, you should be aware that the proportion of cyclists hit by other traffic from behind is about 4-6% (off the top of my head) of all KSI's. So I don't think that the problem (of getting hit) is as great as you suggest. Of course, I don't know what proportion of those hit by vehicles were gutter hugging or secondary positioned (or primary even). But I'm with the others on this one for the countless reasons outlined above.

ronyrash
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby ronyrash » 25 Jan 2012, 4:29pm

[CREPELLO wrote:[ronyrash- i will respond to certain issues by bracketing my responces in the actual post.a new tecnique to me if it works it didnt work last time.my appologies crep
It's blindingly clear to me that if I cycle in the gutter I will have little chance to correct any deviations I may have to make,R/ ]making allowenses for such things is a routine part of cycling]it if I come off the edge of the road. The road edge is often broken up, so a fall is more likely there. This is doubly so at night.

What about gravel accumulation, which is far more likely at the side of the road?R[again its routine part of cycling]

What about drain covers, which are often badly repaired. Do I take my chances over every one of these?R[such hazards are regretably found all over the road.]

What about town cycling? The kerb presents a hazard if I should cycle too near to it.[dont cycle to near to it] More importantly, pedestrians are liable to walk near the kerb, or step out onto the road. Shall I slow to a snail's pace and warn each ped that I'm about to pass?R/[what it takes.a warning shout is often appropriate]

Ronyrash, you should be aware that the proportion of cyclists hit by other traffic from behind is about 4-6% (off the top of my head) of all KSI's. So I don't think that the problem (of getting hit) is as great as you suggest.R/[if you were one of the hit,would that be great enough?] Of course, I don't know what proportion of those hit by vehicles were gutter hugging or secondary positionedR/[it would be a big help if we did know and hopefully in the near future all details [distance from kerb]except of course personal info will be on line and this without doubt will proove that assertives(who tragically include children as they have been taught] who habitually cycle in the traffic flow have a significantley higher [avoidable]accident rate than guttersnipes]who habi (or primary even). But I'm with the others on this one for the countless reasons outlined above.ronyrash

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gilesjuk
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby gilesjuk » 25 Jan 2012, 5:23pm

Drains are best avoided too, wheels can get stuck throwing you off the bike, the grate can be lose or missing and can even give way. Sewers do collapse and you're better away from the side of the road where they often are.

snibgo
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby snibgo » 25 Jan 2012, 5:25pm

ronyrash wrote:it would be a big help if we did know and hopefully in the near future all details [distance from kerb]except of course personal info will be on line ...

The data (eg riding distance from the kerb at the point of collision) isn't routinely collected.

ronyrash wrote:...and this without doubt will proove that assertives(who tragically include children as they have been taught] who habitually cycle in the traffic flow have a significantley higher [avoidable]accident rate than guttersnipes]who habi (or primary even).

If we did know the numbers of injured guttersnipers and other cyclists, we would also need to know the number and mileage of guttersnipers and other cyclists in order to find the relative risk.

If someone does this research, I'd be interested to know the results. I suspect the conclusion would be the opposite to what you think but I can't be certain, of course. Meanwhile, my own experience tallies with official advice: a metre from the kerb is safer than the gutter.

ronyrash
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby ronyrash » 25 Jan 2012, 7:33pm

gilesjuk wrote:Drains are best avoided too, wheels can get stuck throwing you off the bike, the grate can be lose or missing and can even give way. Sewers do collapse and you're better away from the side of the road where they often are.
R/your quite right and it as always been a part of orthodox cycling avoiding such hazards and in doing so keep at the greatest distance from the traffic flow , thus reducing the risk of what could be a fatal accident to the mininmum.i went into a heavy engineering factory as a teenager in the fifties.and it was drummed into me by these very experianced engineers who constanly lived with danger to"never under any circumstances take risks" this was the begining
of my -safety consious-.

snibgo
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby snibgo » 25 Jan 2012, 9:01pm

ronyrash wrote:... and it as always been a part of orthodox cycling avoiding such hazards and in doing so keep at the greatest distance from the traffic flow , thus reducing the risk of what could be a fatal accident to the mininmum.

But the problem is that the gutter does not place you at the greatest distance from the motorists' traffic flow. You are still in their traffic flow, but on the very edge of it so many motorists will think they can ignore you, yet you have no escape when that happens.
Last edited by snibgo on 25 Jan 2012, 10:07pm, edited 1 time in total.

drossall
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby drossall » 25 Jan 2012, 9:31pm

Strictly speaking, you are the traffic flow. There is no concept that I'm aware of (IANAL) in UK traffic law of a flow of traffic with vehicles (bikes) moving to its left, except in filtering etc. of course.

Rather, vehicles overtake to the right. The cars are successively moving out of the traffic flow, passing the cyclist, and moving back in.

Any suggestion of keeping left of the traffic flow suggests that those cars are not moving out enough. The advantage of primary is to encourage that.

The behaviour of motorists varies. Many are excellent and do move out enough to create good separation. However, some need the encouragement, or they will, as the language above suggests, not move out at all, but leave the cyclist to move to the left (somewhere across into the adjacent field) to create the amount of separation envisaged by the photograph accompanying rule 163 of the Highway Code.