guttersnipe

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Ayesha
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby Ayesha » 2 Feb 2012, 8:54am

What I suggest to Ronyrash is "Keep doing what you're doing if it makes you happy. Leave the rest of us to ride our bikes how we choose."

De Sisti
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby De Sisti » 3 Feb 2012, 5:28pm

There was an interesting article on the BBC Breakfast today about cycling safety in London,
with regards to HGVs. Pages 26 and 27 of the i had a items
about cycle safety too. "Road still no safer for Britain's cyclists" by Kevin Rawlinshaw.

The bit that interested me was under the heading; Safe Cycling: A guide.

One paragraph read:

Stay clear of the kerb
The kerb is not your friend. Ride clear of it so that drivers steer around you.
Hugging the pavement invites them to try and scrape past.

ronyrash
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safest cycling.

Postby ronyrash » 2 Jun 2012, 12:23pm

a scottish road sign -fraustration causes accidents.allow for overtaking- assertives and primes please take note.seen 2 signs recently 1/allow cyclist room.[with picture] good advice.2/boy astride a cycle with both arms outstretched message allow cycle space.this sign is ambivalent and dangerouse.it tells cyclist to ride an arms length into the road.the first rule of safety is the cyclist must use all the space that is available to keep him/her at the greatest distance possable from the traffic flow.violation of this basic princaple [tragically, actually advocated by supposed experts]contributed largely to the 10 year blood bath of inexperianced cyclist.blind trust as dior consequencies.a cyclist as to train himher self.with experiance comes confidence.sunday is a quiet day with many family cars,pick other quiet times gradually building up to cyling in traffic.bearing in mind many roads are too dangerous for cycles.be humble,remember for better or worse without the trafic we would be starving.ignor the big mouths who allow their paranoier to become hatred. the government should stop fineancing so called training schemes.the money will have a positive benefit spent on converting pavements into bike/pedestrian ways.
this alone will save 100s of cyclist lives over the next few years untill we have developed safe cities

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: safest cycling.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 2 Jun 2012, 12:53pm

Do you need a new keyboard?

Capitals and punctuation do make rants easier to read.
As to your assertion that gutter hugging is a good idea - there are many people here who would disagree, and with good reason.

We've been here before haven't we?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

bluemint
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Re: safest cycling.

Postby bluemint » 2 Jun 2012, 2:26pm

Is this a lost chapter from Finnegan's Wake?

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gaz
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Re: safest cycling.

Postby gaz » 2 Jun 2012, 2:35pm

No, it's an opinion from ronyrash.

As [Xap]Bob says, we've been here before.

Edit - link removed as Si's now merged the threads and I don't want anyone reading round in cirlces.
Last edited by gaz on 2 Jun 2012, 4:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

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Si
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby Si » 2 Jun 2012, 2:42pm

Same thing again so topics merged.

snibgo
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby snibgo » 2 Jun 2012, 5:13pm

I think the nonsense about keeping away from traffic flows has been addressed upthread.

ronyrash wrote:the government should stop fineancing so called training schemes.the money will have a positive benefit spent on converting pavements into bike/pedestrian ways.


I also profoundly disagree with this. UK cyclists need to be able to ride in traffic, and training shows them how to do this. It is a remarkably cheap (about £40 per cyclist) way of supporting cycling.

The UK has a diabolical record of converting pavements into dual-use. True, it is temptingly cheap: a bit of paperwork and some signs. But the result is bad for both cyclists and pedestrians.

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danfoto
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby danfoto » 5 Jun 2012, 5:56pm

anothereye wrote:I think there's a broader issue here. It's the difference between feeling safe and being as safe as possible.
1. Some people say they feel safer near the gutter.
2. Some feel safer with a helmet.
3. Some feel safer in a cycle lane.
4. Slower is safer.

The reality is different:
1. Has been dealt with above.
2. Arguably, motorists give you less clearance if you wear a helmet.
3. Unless the lane is sufficiently wide (unusual), motorists pass you closer than if there is no marking on the road.
4. Keeping up with the speed of other traffic means no-one overtakes.

In other words, some things about cycling are counter intuitive (please add more to my list).

At the risk of getting radical my conclusion is: It's better not to feel safe. I'm not saying it's better to feel afraid; it's better to feel vulnerable simply because it's the truth, cyclists are vulnerable. One reason I love cycling is because it helps me to develope my 6th sense, if I'm not awake when I leave the house I am as soon as I hear the sound of the first motor vehicle, I want all my decisions to be informed by 'safety first', just feeling safe does nothing to serve that purpose.


Gad, Sir, permit me to congratulate you on a very fine post indeed.

Couldn't agree more if you paid me.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

Tasker
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby Tasker » 5 Jun 2012, 8:33pm

'i always cycle as close to the kerb as possible.usually about a foot from the kerb.and moving out [after checking for vehicles]when appropriate.this as been my practice over 60 years,i have cycled 1000s of miles both in uk and abroad untill comparitavly recently anyone riding away from the kerb would have been considered barmy and stopped by police as a danger to other road users.but it seems cyclist are now being advised to ride at a distance away from the kerb in the traffic flow pretending they are a motor vehicle. how many accidents will it take before cyclist accept that *the greater the distance from the traffic the less chance of an accident.'

Absolutely right. Sixty six here and it's stood me in good stead too. (well I'm still here).

I think it's an age thing: if I were young and fit again and could thus take on the cars I know I would. Not now. Lacking the courage youth brings I prefer to be a worm and get around on my little tours and round the town safely.

My advice for us old un's? DON'T wear a helmet whatever you do. But do wear your Hi-viz gear. The car driver will pity you seemingly gasping away in the gutter and give you room and a certain consideration he wouldn't to some young buck 'Eco Warrior, claiming the road.'

Remember to make him feel good about himself by giving him a cheery, 'sorry to have held you up', wave as he passes.

ILikesToCycle
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby ILikesToCycle » 5 Jun 2012, 9:21pm

I must admit I fully agree with Rony. I only take up a mid position or other appropriate when seeking to manoeuvre myself to turn or where I have to. The simple fact is as a cyclist you are not traveling at the same speed as cars or motorbikes and except very briefly you are not able to accelerate as quickly (An exception to this is busy city cycling when not on a main road). This at best puts you as an obstacle to traffic if youre away from the curb meaning some impatient buttock will eventually cut the distance between you and the next oncoming car down to a whisker or worse. There's no point arguing over whether this is right or wrong and what should be done about drivers like that, the simple fact is by taking a more central road position you're increasing the likelyhood of this type of behaviour. At worst you cause an accident when someone has not seen you and is approaching too quickly being forced to swerve wider into the other lane into an oncoming car.

Even when I used to ride my 50cc moped down a single lane national speed limit road I would hold near to the curb for all the same reasons.

An example of where I do take a more central position is where the road is narrow and you already have a vehicle queing behind you. In this case you might want to guard against over taking because of this type of mistake but I only do it when I know I already have a driver behind me.

I could write a lot more but unfortunately I'm out of time. Take care on the roads all.

Big T
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby Big T » 6 Jun 2012, 12:54pm

I tend to ride in the left side wheel track that is used by most cars. I guess that's about 2 feet out from the kerb. The advantage of this is that this stretch of road surface is fairly smooth and free of debris, as it is regularly "swept" by car tyres. Ride any closer to the kerb and you are in the zone that doesn't get "swept", so you risk picking up grit, glass and anything else. You are also in the drainhole cover zone.

Riding too close to the kerb can actually encourage dangerous overtaking, especially at pinch points.

39 years cycling, 170,000 miles and yet to be hit from behind on an urban road (touch wood!)
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Sum
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby Sum » 9 Feb 2013, 10:53am

ILikesToCycle wrote:I must admit I fully agree with Rony. I only take up a mid position or other appropriate when seeking to manoeuvre myself to turn or where I have to. The simple fact is as a cyclist you are not traveling at the same speed as cars or motorbikes and except very briefly you are not able to accelerate as quickly (An exception to this is busy city cycling when not on a main road). This at best puts you as an obstacle to traffic if youre away from the curb meaning some impatient <i>[rude word removed]</i> will eventually cut the distance between you and the next oncoming car down to a whisker or worse. There's no point arguing over whether this is right or wrong and what should be done about drivers like that, the simple fact is by taking a more central road position you're increasing the likelyhood of this type of behaviour. At worst you cause an accident when someone has not seen you and is approaching too quickly being forced to swerve wider into the other lane into an oncoming car.

Even when I used to ride my 50cc moped down a single lane national speed limit road I would hold near to the curb for all the same reasons.

An example of where I do take a more central position is where the road is narrow and you already have a vehicle queing behind you. In this case you might want to guard against over taking because of this type of mistake but I only do it when I know I already have a driver behind me.

I could write a lot more but unfortunately I'm out of time. Take care on the roads all.


Ironically you're actually disagreeing with Ronyrash. He's advocating that cyclists should always ride in the gutter and is having none of this primary postion business at all. You at least vary your position in the road depending upon the circumstances, which is a more sane thing to do, and is more consistent with everyone else that's been arguing with Ronyrash.

Geriatrix
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby Geriatrix » 9 Feb 2013, 11:50am

My road positioning as far as possible sticks to John Franklin's guidance. The exception being when I tour and on a country lane I'll often move over as far as possible and wave a car past when it's clear ahead. I have never felt that it puts me at risk and driver invariably gives an appreciative wave.
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled - Richard Feynman

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: guttersnipe

Postby [XAP]Bob » 9 Feb 2013, 12:15pm

Holy batman resurection batman...

Particularly in towns cyclists are often the fastest vehicles on the road, I wish more cars would hug the gutter (if nithing else they'd clean it)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.