guttersnipe

[Sum]

My mistake! It was linked in from the pedestrian island thread that's still current. I was so amazed by it all that I couldn't resist but chip in even if rather belatedly!

[Joe.B]

Its an almost impossiblity to write an instructional book on how to ride a bicycle on the road.
There are so many variables.

What one can do however, is list the techniques which force cars, trucks, buses and vans AWAY from the cyclist.

Wobbling. Weaving. Wandering. That's http://www.Safecycling.com

Yes, I’ve recently started to occasionally use this technique. If I hear a fast or heavy vehicle coming for behind while it is still some distance away I have a little wobble and weave. They don’t half slow down and give a wide berth.

Back to the OP. There is not a one size fits all method for every road of traffic situation. Sometimes I resolutely maintain primary, such as passing through pinch points, where as sometimes I ride closer to the kerb to give faster road users room to pass, so long as I feel that doing so does not stand me into danger.

[ronyrash]

I must admit I fully agree with Rony. I only take up a mid position or other appropriate when seeking to manoeuvre myself to turn or where I have to. The simple fact is as a cyclist you are not traveling at the same speed as cars or motorbikes and except very briefly you are not able to accelerate as quickly (An exception to this is busy city cycling when not on a main road). This at best puts you as an obstacle to traffic if youre away from the curb meaning some impatient <i>[rude word removed]</i> will eventually cut the distance between you and the next oncoming car down to a whisker or worse. There's no point arguing over whether this is right or wrong and what should be done about drivers like that, the simple fact is by taking a more central road position you're increasing the likelyhood of this type of behaviour. At worst you cause an accident when someone has not seen you and is approaching too quickly being forced to swerve wider into the other lane into an oncoming car.

Even when I used to ride my 50cc moped down a single lane national speed limit road I would hold near to the curb for all the same reasons.

An example of where I do take a more central position is where the road is narrow and you already have a vehicle queing behind you. In this case you might want to guard against over taking because of this type of mistake but I only do it when I know I already have a driver behind me.

I could write a lot more but unfortunately I'm out of time. Take care on the roads all.

Ironically you're actually disagreeing with Ronyrash. He's advocating that cyclists should always ride in the gutter and is having none of this primary postion business at all. You at least vary your position in the road depending upon the circumstances, which is a more sane thing to do, and is more consistent with everyone else that's been arguing with Ronyrash.

the above is a total misinterpretation of what i wrote.my post can be checked.

[Sum]

I'd be interested to know how I have managed to misinterpreted your posts on this thread Ronyrash (assuming you was actually referring to my comment that you were advocating that cyclists should always ride in the gutter and is having none of this primary postion business at all). You have described yourself as guttersnipe who “always cycle as close to the kerb as possible” and have referred to people who do otherwise as “barmy” in your OP. When people tried to reason with you by pointing out the benefits of adopting other cycling positions on the road, including the primary position, you described them as “being foolish with dior penelties” and demonstrating “limited safety awhernes” who for their health's sake should "go back to the gutter". As you say, your posts can be checked.

[ronyrash]

rash

Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:11 pm
Top \[nha trang vietnam]
this is barley worthy of a responce.you seem to be desperate to make the foot fit the shoe.no time have i advocated that anyone should-always ride in the gutter-this is just terminology appropriate to the nature of the subject i stated very clearly that a cyclist should at al times keep the- greatest distance from the traffic flow as space allowed-common sence!which self styled primes and assertives [terminology from the horse riding origines of the ctc] take exception too.machoism! of course sports and club cycling[both high risk groups] have their place but [cycling would have died without them].and they no best how to train riders for sports and club cycling the mistake they have made with such tragic results is blindly applying their training practices to non competative cyclist.this obominable mistake needs to be aknowledge .as yet nobody can be directly blamed, its more a consequence of circumctances.but too avoid future uneccessary accidents the prime cause of the staggering 27000 uk cycling deaths [nr]in the past decade as to be reconised.-the training-.trained to be killed.
is the ctc. big enough to admit it made a collosal mistake? and what it intends to do about it.please,i have not infinate resourses.i will reply to sensable responces.as time allows.safe commonsence cycling!

[reohn2]

I'll have a pint of what^ he's had

[hexhome]

rash

Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:11 pm
Top \[nha trang vietnam]
this is barley worthy of a responce.you seem to be desperate to make the foot fit the shoe.no time have i advocated that anyone should-always ride in the gutter-this is just terminology appropriate to the nature of the subject i stated very clearly that a cyclist should at al times keep the- greatest distance from the traffic flow as space allowed-common sence!which self styled primes and assertives [terminology from the horse riding origines of the ctc] take exception too.machoism! of course sports and club cycling[both high risk groups] have their place but [cycling would have died without them].and they no best how to train riders for sports and club cycling the mistake they have made with such tragic results is blindly applying their training practices to non competative cyclist.this obominable mistake needs to be aknowledge .as yet nobody can be directly blamed, its more a consequence of circumctances.but too avoid future uneccessary accidents the prime cause of the staggering 27000 uk cycling deaths [nr]in the past decade as to be reconised.-the training-.trained to be killed.
is the ctc. big enough to admit it made a collosal mistake? and what it intends to do about it.please,i have not infinate resourses.i will reply to sensable responces.as time allows.safe commonsence cycling!

Translated for clarity! NOT MY THOUGHTS!;

This is barely worth a response. You are trying to make the foot fit the shoe. At no time have I advocated that anyone should always ride in the gutter, this was just terminology appropriate to the subject. I stated, very clearly, that a cyclist should at all times keep as far away from traffic flow as possible. I take exception to the terms 'primes' and 'assertive' (which are horse riding terms, CTC) as they are machocistic.

Sports and club cyclists (both high risk groups) have their place (cycling would have died without them). They know how to train riders for club and sports riding, but it is a tragic mistake to apply these techniques to non competitive cyclists. This awful mistake needs to be acknowledged. Nobody can be directly blamed, it is a consequence of circumstance. To avoid more deaths (27000 last decade), the training to be killed needs to be stopped. Is the CTC big enough to admit that it has made a colossal mistake? What does it intend to do about it? Whilst I do not have infinite resources, I will reply to sensible (sic) responses as time allows.

Safe, common sense cycling!

[Sum]

Wow, that's an impressive rant by Ronyrash! Forget the u-turn in denying what he's previously said, he now appears to be pointing the finger at CTC for a decade of cycling deaths? I can't work out whether Ronyrash is the forum equivalent of the village idiot or he's just simply messing with us.

[[XAP]Bob]

Also where doea that 27000/decade come from?

In the UK it might be around 1000, certainly nowhere near 27 times that.

[hexhome]

If R's rant proves anything, it is that cycling is pretty safe, despite misguided action.

For what it's worth, in cities I find it pays to behave like all the other traffic and in rural areas to keep in (but not in the gutter) except at pinch points, tight bends etc.

[Sum]

Also where doea that 27000/decade come from?

In the UK it might be around 1000, certainly nowhere near 27 times that.

I think R's figure might be including serious injuries as well as fatalities? Either that or he's including fatalities for all road users including motorists and pedestrians. It's hard to tell with R.

For what it's worth, in cities I find it pays to behave like all the other traffic and in rural areas to keep in (but not in the gutter) except at pinch points, tight bends etc.

If that's what R has been trying to say all this time then I would be inclined to agree with him (it's pretty much what I do) although his responses to previous posts suggests he isn't. Any clarity from R would be welcome.

[Vorpal]

Wow, that's an impressive rant by Ronyrash! Forget the u-turn in denying what he's previously said, he now appears to be pointing the finger at CTC for a decade of cycling deaths? I can't work out whether Ronyrash is the forum equivalent of the village idiot or he's just simply messing with us.

That's not a u-turn on what he has previously said. He has even said that he sometimes uses a position at pinch points and things to prevent overtaking. He has also previously said that it is a mistake to teach cyclists assertive riding.

I think that Ronyrash interprets assertive to mean aggressive. Whilst I don't agree with him on the points he raised, there is no reason to insult him.

[ronyrash]

rash

Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:11 pm
Top \[nha trang vietnam]
this is barley worthy of a responce.you seem to be desperate to make the foot fit the shoe.no time have i advocated that anyone should-always ride in the gutter-this is just terminology appropriate to the nature of the subject i stated very clearly that a cyclist should at al times keep the- greatest distance from the traffic flow as space allowed-common sence!which self styled primes and assertives [terminology from the horse riding origines of the ctc] take exception too.machoism! of course sports and club cycling[both high risk groups] have their place but [cycling would have died without them].and they no best how to train riders for sports and club cycling the mistake they have made with such tragic results is blindly applying their training practices to non competative cyclist.this obominable mistake needs to be aknowledge .as yet nobody can be directly blamed, its more a consequence of circumctances.but too avoid future uneccessary accidents the prime cause of the staggering 27000 uk cycling deaths [nr]in the past decade as to be reconised.-the training-.trained to be killed.
is the ctc. big enough to admit it made a collosal mistake? and what it intends to do about it.please,i have not infinate resourses.i will reply to sensable responces.as time allows.safe commonsence cycling!

Translated for clarity! NOT MY THOUGHTS!;

This is barely worth a response. You are trying to make the foot fit the shoe. At no time have I advocated that anyone should always ride in the gutter, this was just terminology appropriate to the subject. I stated, very clearly, that a cyclist should at all times keep as far away from traffic flow as possible. I take exception to the terms 'primes' and 'assertive' (which are horse riding terms, CTC) as they are machocistic.

Sports and club cyclists (both high risk groups) have their place (cycling would have died without them). They know how to train riders for club and sports riding, but it is a tragic mistake to apply these techniques to non competitive cyclists. This awful mistake needs to be acknowledged. Nobody can be directly blamed, it is a consequence of circumstance. To avoid more deaths (27000 last decade), the training to be killed needs to be stopped. Is the CTC big enough to admit that it has made a colossal mistake? What does it intend to do about it? Whilst I do not have infinite resources, I will reply to sensible (sic) responses as time allows.

Safe, common sense cycling!

[nha trang vietnam]
this person is totally out of order reinterpretating my post.in this manner.im sure our ajudicators will agree.

[ronyrash]

-[nha trang vietnam]
Report this postReply with quote Re: guttersnipe
by Vorpal » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:02 am

Sum wrote:
Wow, that's an impressive rant by Ronyrash! Forget the u-turn in denying what he's previously said, he now appears to be pointing the finger at CTC for a decade of cycling deaths? I can't work out whether Ronyrash is the forum equivalent of the village idiot or he's just simply messing with us.


That's not a u-turn on what he has previously said. He has even said that he sometimes uses a position at pinch points and things to prevent overtaking. He has also previously said that it is a mistake to teach cyclists assertive riding.

I think that Ronyrash interprets assertive to mean aggressive. Whilst I don't agree with him on the points he raised, there is ect
vorpal, thanks for your clarification.but this asertive meaning as been fully explained by alanguage profesional who went to the trouble of informing the forum that some american dictionaries interpretate assertive as agressive!.the oxford shorter dictionarry gives dogmatic!
very dangerous words for training a new cyclist.

[ronyrash]

[nha trang vietnam]
the ctc is heavely involved in training programs that have resulted ,[to a very large extent]in the death, near death,of 27,000
cyclist over the past decade.the ctc does a wonderfull job promoting cycling issues.but it needs to aknowledge in hindsight,and to prevent even more unecessary deaths/nr deaths that its traning programes have been horrendously misguided.happy commonsence cycling!to everyone.