Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

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Mick F
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby Mick F » 9 Jul 2012, 3:17pm

Yes, it does.
If I were to use it, I'd have been going far slower and being very careful with my undertakes.
Mick F. Cornwall

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meic
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby meic » 9 Jul 2012, 3:22pm

I think that the video makes you concentrate on things too close to the bike, the rider would have been looking further ahead and having a better input than we get through a camera lens.

Most people are more nervous as a passenger than as the driver and a lot of that is coming out in the posts on this thread.
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Mick F
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby Mick F » 9 Jul 2012, 3:39pm

Yes, I agree, and I realised that right at the beginning of this long saga of a thread, so I took that thought into my stated opinions.

Just coz something is legal and "prescribed", it doesn't mean it is safe or wise. You have to judge your actions in the situation and conditions that are presented to you. If all that traffic was free-flowing, our OP would have been fine, but because it was congested, he should have been very cautious.

However, no doubt he felt safe. Perhaps he'd done that ride at that time of day many many times. It's easy for me/us/we to discuss the merits/demerits of riding like that. We weren't there. I can only go with my gut feeling on the matter. He was reckless in his riding.

I was out yesterday for a 30mile spin and came down Gunnislake Hill back to the village. I came down at just over 40mph - braking for the corners! Was that reckless? The road was empty and the surface dry and clean and there's a good view of any traffic approaching. I had faith in my bike and in my abilities and there was plenty room on both sides of the road. Contrast that to our OP. He was doing half my speed in one tenth of the space, with dense traffic whilst he was squeezing down a narrow passage with no room for error.
Mick F. Cornwall

kwackers
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby kwackers » 9 Jul 2012, 3:45pm

Mick F wrote: I came down at just over 40mph - braking for the corners! Was that reckless? The road was empty and the surface dry and clean and there's a good view of any traffic approaching. I had faith in my bike and in my abilities and there was plenty room on both sides of the road. Contrast that to our OP.

Or contrast it to a guy who having previously come a cropper because of a pothole didn't learn by his mistakes (indeed his downhill shenanigans seem to have gotten faster!) In which case, yes; he was reckless. :lol:

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby DougieB » 9 Jul 2012, 9:02pm

I used to live on Paxton Rd, pretty much where the incident happened. I never cycled Burlington Lane, only motorbiked it (many times). A horrible road. You have fast traffic from the A4 opposing fast traffic from Richmond coming to a pinch point (this part is the slowest, mostly congested, with two bends in the road). There are parked cars on one side which cause vehicles to veer out to the centre line, or veer into the pavement side. Needless to say, everyone is in a rush (cyclists included). On the motorbike I would pretty much never attempt to filter on this small stretch, just too hazardous (and I'm not shy about filtering), and most of the time it was just not possible.

as with many incidents in London, the cyclist took a gamble and lost. how many incidents involve cycling up the inside of a moving lorry ? for the sake of hanging back for 5 seconds.

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby incidentman » 9 Jul 2012, 11:57pm

Mick F wrote:I was out yesterday for a 30mile spin and came down Gunnislake Hill back to the village. I came down at just over 40mph - braking for the corners! Was that reckless? The road was empty and the surface dry and clean and there's a good view of any traffic approaching. I had faith in my bike and in my abilities and there was plenty room on both sides of the road. Contrast that to our OP. He was doing half my speed in one tenth of the space, with dense traffic whilst he was squeezing down a narrow passage with no room for error.


It was, sadly, for this cyclist:

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9 ... one_crash/

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby Mick F » 10 Jul 2012, 8:38am

kwackers wrote:Or contrast it to a guy who having previously come a cropper because of a pothole didn't learn by his mistakes (indeed his downhill shenanigans seem to have gotten faster!) In which case, yes; he was reckless. :lol:
Yes, I was lucky not to have been badly injured. Big grazes and a hole in my elbow plus ruined a pair of shorts and a top. Bike was fine on the whole.

That road where I hit the hole is a very different hill and I now know what I did wrong. It all goes with experience. My errors were knowing that the road was problematical in its surface but still whizzed along, and worst of all - wearing sunglasses going under thick tree cover so I couldn't see the road.

I've learned. I now don't ever wear sunglasses when I'm riding, and I don't hurtle down that hill any more. No doubt our OP has learned too. The learning process never ends and none of us are perfect.

Gunnislake Hill is a completely different kettle of fish. The surface of the main part of the hill is superb, the corners are wide and open, there's no dark tree cover either. I recommend that hill to anyone who like a run at 40mph plus.

This is me on my Raleigh Chopper coming down Gunny Hill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP_3OfVQjF0
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 10 Jul 2012, 8:49am

incidentman wrote:
Mick F wrote:I was out yesterday for a 30mile spin and came down Gunnislake Hill back to the village. I came down at just over 40mph - braking for the corners! Was that reckless? The road was empty and the surface dry and clean and there's a good view of any traffic approaching. I had faith in my bike and in my abilities and there was plenty room on both sides of the road. Contrast that to our OP. He was doing half my speed in one tenth of the space, with dense traffic whilst he was squeezing down a narrow passage with no room for error.


It was, sadly, for this cyclist:

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9 ... one_crash/


Driver error (turning against oncoming traffic), result - Cyclist in hospital.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby meic » 10 Jul 2012, 9:10am

However it is quite possible that the cyclist was exceeding the speed limit for all motor vehicles at that point which will excuse the drivers actions and reduce or remove compensation payments.

However a car would have no such blame attached to it for exceeding the speed limit for other vehicle types in a similar position.

We live in a car centric society and a cyclist will be judged by car standards even if they apply to it no more than HGV standards apply to a car.
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby kwackers » 10 Jul 2012, 9:23am

meic wrote:However it is quite possible that the cyclist was exceeding the speed limit for all motor vehicles at that point which will excuse the drivers actions and reduce or remove compensation payments.

However a car would have no such blame attached to it for exceeding the speed limit for other vehicle types in a similar position.

We live in a car centric society and a cyclist will be judged by car standards even if they apply to it no more than HGV standards apply to a car.

I got knocked off my motorbike at about 20mph by a car that abruptly swung into my lane in order to whizz down the outside of some slow traffic.
He subsequently claimed I must have been well over the speed limit since he hadn't seen me! Whilst this was blatantly untrue (I'd been alongside him for nearly 100m) I was bothered that his insurers would prefer his version of events. When I queried my solicitor about this she claimed my speed was irrelevant since he should have checked anyway. His insurers didn't contest my version so I presume she was right...
Whether that would have a bearing on the criminal side of things I've no idea.

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 10 Jul 2012, 9:46am

meic wrote:However it is quite possible that the cyclist was exceeding the speed limit for all motor vehicles at that point which will excuse the drivers actions and reduce or remove compensation payments.

However a car would have no such blame attached to it for exceeding the speed limit for other vehicle types in a similar position.

We live in a car centric society and a cyclist will be judged by car standards even if they apply to it no more than HGV standards apply to a car.


It makes no sense to look at his speed unless that is suspected as a cause. How long does it take to swing across a lane of traffic, how big a gap do you need?
It's unlikely that the cyclist didn't try to slow.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby thirdcrank » 10 Jul 2012, 10:05am

kwackers wrote: ... Whether that would have a bearing on the criminal side of things I've no idea.


"Riding too fast" is a common allegation against cyclists - people have said it to me after SMIDSY incidents - luckily without a collision. In the context of the OP, I've been overtaken by a bus which turned left during the overtake. I was really lucky I was able to avoid a collision. As the bus was merely turning at a route terminus and then had a lay-over (or whatever they call it) before setting off again, the bus driver formed a captive audience. His line was "You must have been riding too fast." (Translation = "Cut along sonny: I'm a driving a big important bus, consider yourself very lucky I didn't wipe you out.")

It's been made to me when I've been investigating a collision and colleagues have had the same experience. (Admittedly, IIRC, the last colleague who mentioned this to me was himself a keen cyclist.) I've also had to deal with this when prosecuting.

When put on the spot, the driver making the allegation has to settle on one version, either "I saw the cyclist was riding quickly but I still decided to manouevre into their path" or "I didn't see the cyclist and so I am not in a position to say anything about their manner of riding." (For motorcyclists, this is the "Think once, think twice, think 'Oh heck i've killed a motor cyclist.'")

Obviously, things are different with independent witnesses, even if they have no more idea than the driver. Also, I'm not saying that cyclists riding too quickly is never the cause of a collision.

The other thing about criminal prosecutions is that although it's common (or used to be when collisions normally led to a prosecution) for one party to be a prosecution witness against the other, with sufficient evidence there's no reason why both parties should not be prosecuted for, say, careless driving.

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby incidentman » 10 Jul 2012, 2:21pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
meic wrote:However it is quite possible that the cyclist was exceeding the speed limit for all motor vehicles at that point which will excuse the drivers actions and reduce or remove compensation payments.

However a car would have no such blame attached to it for exceeding the speed limit for other vehicle types in a similar position.

We live in a car centric society and a cyclist will be judged by car standards even if they apply to it no more than HGV standards apply to a car.


It makes no sense to look at his speed unless that is suspected as a cause. How long does it take to swing across a lane of traffic, how big a gap do you need?
It's unlikely that the cyclist didn't try to slow.


The road is downhill and I guess the cyclist was doing a fair lick. He was tucked behind a car, and the right-turning motorist didn't see him.

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 10 Jul 2012, 2:47pm

incidentman wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
meic wrote:However it is quite possible that the cyclist was exceeding the speed limit for all motor vehicles at that point which will excuse the drivers actions and reduce or remove compensation payments.

However a car would have no such blame attached to it for exceeding the speed limit for other vehicle types in a similar position.

We live in a car centric society and a cyclist will be judged by car standards even if they apply to it no more than HGV standards apply to a car.


It makes no sense to look at his speed unless that is suspected as a cause. How long does it take to swing across a lane of traffic, how big a gap do you need?
It's unlikely that the cyclist didn't try to slow.


The road is downhill and I guess the cyclist was doing a fair lick. He was tucked behind a car, and the right-turning motorist didn't see him.


If he was actually tucked in then the car he hit must have been doing serious speed to get in-between him and the car he was following.

More likely he was just mildly obscured by virtue of "keeping left" :evil:
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby Flinders » 11 Jul 2012, 1:27pm

Mick F wrote:
kwackers wrote:Or contrast it to a guy who having previously come a cropper because of a pothole didn't learn by his mistakes (indeed his downhill shenanigans seem to have gotten faster!) In which case, yes; he was reckless. :lol:
Yes, I was lucky not to have been badly injured. Big grazes and a hole in my elbow plus ruined a pair of shorts and a top. Bike was fine on the whole.

That road where I hit the hole is a very different hill and I now know what I did wrong. It all goes with experience. My errors were knowing that the road was problematical in its surface but still whizzed along, and worst of all - wearing sunglasses going under thick tree cover so I couldn't see the road.

I've learned. I now don't ever wear sunglasses when I'm riding, and I don't hurtle down that hill any more. No doubt our OP has learned too. The learning process never ends and none of us are perfect.

Gunnislake Hill is a completely different kettle of fish. The surface of the main part of the hill is superb, the corners are wide and open, there's no dark tree cover either. I recommend that hill to anyone who like a run at 40mph plus.

This is me on my Raleigh Chopper coming down Gunny Hill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP_3OfVQjF0


Sunglasses are a problem either way. I wear them because I'm easily dazzled if I don't (as are females generally as we don't have such deep 'brow bones'), but the dappled light under trees does disguise the road surface, and to compound it, the shade of trees itself tends to cause damage in the road surface, esp. on rural lanes. My remedy is to wear sunspecs but seriously slow down when approaching shadow areas so I can see what's going on in plenty of time, especially in patchy shadow areas like under trees.