Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Pugwash
Posts: 114
Joined: 13 Jan 2010, 12:57pm

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby Pugwash » 3 Jul 2012, 11:40am

I have to say my heart was in my mouth watching that clip.

my advise is to take the clip down and get in contact with some solicitors pronto.

Clearly the lorries fault imo - but yo have to prove it.

karlt
Posts: 2244
Joined: 15 Jul 2011, 2:07pm

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby karlt » 3 Jul 2012, 11:41am

kwackers wrote:
karlt wrote:Doing it in a forum like this could even be libel.

Eh? On what planet?


On this one. Any false accusation made on a written medium - such as "these people are murderous monsters who intend to kill us", is potentially libellous.

karlt
Posts: 2244
Joined: 15 Jul 2011, 2:07pm

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby karlt » 3 Jul 2012, 11:42am

horizon wrote:
karlt wrote:Don't be silly. Highway engineers are not "evil monsters" intentionally trying to kill cyclists and taking delight in cyclist deaths; they are ignorant of how dangerous the recommended solutions are. This "they actually want to kill us" conspiracy nonsense makes us look like idiots.



Quite right. But maybe suggesting that cycle lanes are often dangerous to the extent that it is hard to imagine any intelligent person constructing them in this way (let alone a skilled professional engineer) it will awaken highway engineers to the dangerous folly of their ways.

(I've amended my post in case anyone thinks that I actually believe that highway engineers deliberately design cycle ways this way. However I'm still trying to find a way of expressing the fact that the layout of this whole stretch of road would induce an accident without accusing the highway engineers of deliberately doing so. Most of the posts so far advise the OP to deal assertively and sensibly with what is an untenable road layout - I agree with, this but it cannot be what was intended when the cycle lane was designed. By constructing an apparently helpful lane, the highway authority encourages what is obviously to us dangerous undertaking of the lorry by the OP and then a continuation of the same road position once the cycle lane had come to an end. Any unskilled cyclist using this facility would be lulled into a false sense of security when in fact they were heading for danger. The cycle lane is far worse than useless.)


In the same way that the unskilled cyclist doesn't see the danger, nor do the highway engineers. Never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

kwackers
Posts: 13302
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby kwackers » 3 Jul 2012, 11:49am

karlt wrote:
kwackers wrote:
karlt wrote:Doing it in a forum like this could even be libel.

Eh? On what planet?


On this one. Any false accusation made on a written medium - such as "these people are murderous monsters who intend to kill us", is potentially libellous.

Rubbish. I mean seriously you expect whatever body highway engineers come under to instigate libel proceedings?
What next? Are the banks going to gang together and get me for some of the stuff I've said?

kwackers
Posts: 13302
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby kwackers » 3 Jul 2012, 11:49am

karlt wrote:In the same way that the unskilled cyclist doesn't see the danger, nor do the highway engineers. Never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

They're incompetent now? Aren't you worried about libel? :wink: :lol:

User avatar
horizon
Posts: 9350
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Cornwall

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby horizon » 3 Jul 2012, 11:51am

In the same way that the unskilled cyclist doesn't see the danger, nor do the highway engineers. Never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


karlt: you make a very reasonable point and it's obvious that I don't believe any highway engineer to act in this way.

However the point I am making is that time and time again, cycle lanes lead one into danger - this is well known and documented - they are not just awkward and time wasting - many are deceptively dangerous and this one is no different. This goes beyond simple incompetence - it implies a liability that all professionals have to face and which is often brought out in enquiries.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

Ron
Posts: 1184
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 9:07pm

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby Ron » 3 Jul 2012, 12:06pm

That clip had me worried right from the start when I saw how close to the kerb the cyclist was positioned. Poor road design and lack of defensive cycling were, i believe, major contributing factors to this incident.

User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 16882
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 3 Jul 2012, 12:13pm

Personally I was uncomfortable for much of the video. I was thinking that the video would make an excellent submission to silly cyclists as you flew past the lorry (then again I think that of myself every so often).

The lorry driver should have been aware of your presence - they didn't overtake you, they simply ignored you.

The highway "engineers" responsible for that idiotic paint strip should be taken out and slapped - then banned from ever working on the road network again.

You could and should have been more aware of the lorry, and you had a lovely escape route available. You could and probably should have been taking a more assertive position on the road, you are clearly able to keep up with the motor traffic - I think I'd have overtaken with the motorcyclist rather than use that cycle lane.

Insurance is a no brainer - you were knocked off by a lorry driver whose driving falls well below the standard required for our roads. You should be fully restored wrt the material damage caused.

However, learning is also important.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

700c
Posts: 511
Joined: 5 Jul 2007, 6:49pm

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby 700c » 3 Jul 2012, 12:24pm

Lorry was way too close to you, assuming he ever saw you.

Your cycling style contributes greatly to the eventual spill.

wirral_cyclist
Posts: 666
Joined: 17 May 2010, 9:25pm
Location: Wirral Merseyside

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby wirral_cyclist » 3 Jul 2012, 12:26pm

A poor rider wishing that a better trucker was alongside when the inevitable happened methinks - I'm not even sure the bike got ahead of the truck enough for the trucker to have then been incompetent in what transpired! Taking a road position inside the moped at the lights flagged up the style (lack of?) of riding, why would anyone want have a road position that could pass for a third red line on the road - damn near became a red smear that's for sure...

Sent from an Android by a human

stewartpratt
Posts: 2566
Joined: 27 Dec 2007, 5:12pm

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby stewartpratt » 3 Jul 2012, 12:32pm

One crucial thing that's not at all clear from the video is how far in front of the lorry you actually came.

Here's a page with an image showing an HGV's blind spot. If you emerged forward of his blind spot before the collision then you probably have a sound case for his lack of due care and attention, otherwise I don't think you do. But the video doesn't tell us whether you did or not. The evidence is inconclusive and in an "innocent until proven guilty" model you don't have a leg to stand on.

Note, also crucially, that whilst you're undertaking him, there is a motorcyclist overtaking him. There is no way the driver can fully monitor *both* wing mirrors and the road ahead at the same time. There is a very good chance he didn't see you, not only because it's quite reasonable not to expect a cyclist to undertake a moving HGV but also because he was having to observe traffic passing him to the outside.

Whilst it may, possibly, be that the lorry driver was at fault, your riding style is an accident that was waiting to happen, IMO.

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby meic » 3 Jul 2012, 12:36pm

stewartpratt wrote:One crucial thing that's not at all clear from the video is how far in front of the lorry you actually came.

Here's a page with an image showing an HGV's blind spot. If you emerged forward of his blind spot before the collision then you probably have a sound case for his lack of due care and attention, otherwise I don't think you do. But the video doesn't tell us whether you did or not. The evidence is inconclusive and in an "innocent until proven guilty" model you don't have a leg to stand on.

Note, also crucially, that whilst you're undertaking him, there is a motorcyclist overtaking him. There is no way the driver can fully monitor *both* wing mirrors and the road ahead at the same time. There is a very good chance he didn't see you, not only because it's quite reasonable not to expect a cyclist to undertake a moving HGV but also because he was having to observe traffic passing him to the outside.

Whilst it may, possibly, be that the lorry driver was at fault, your riding style is an accident that was waiting to happen, IMO.


This is mixing up civil claim for compensation with a criminal prosecution.

I think that as there is a cycle lane with a solid white line it is very reasonable to expect a cyclist to be using it and overtaking a slow moving truck.
Yma o Hyd

User avatar
horizon
Posts: 9350
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Cornwall

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby horizon » 3 Jul 2012, 1:05pm

stewartpratt wrote:One crucial thing that's not at all clear from the video is how far in front of the lorry you actually came.

Here's a page with an image showing an HGV's blind spot. If you emerged forward of his blind spot before the collision then you probably have a sound case for his lack of due care and attention, otherwise I don't think you do. But the video doesn't tell us whether you did or not. The evidence is inconclusive and in an "innocent until proven guilty" model you don't have a leg to stand on.

Note, also crucially, that whilst you're undertaking him, there is a motorcyclist overtaking him. There is no way the driver can fully monitor *both* wing mirrors and the road ahead at the same time. There is a very good chance he didn't see you, not only because it's quite reasonable not to expect a cyclist to undertake a moving HGV but also because he was having to observe traffic passing him to the outside.

Whilst it may, possibly, be that the lorry driver was at fault, your riding style is an accident that was waiting to happen, IMO.


stewart: if you are seriously suggesting that the OP should have ignored and flouted the directions given by the road markings, by the Highway Code and by society in general, then everything else (like red light jumping) starts to unravel as well. I happen to agree with you but that does have implications for all the other rules of the road - cyclists disobey the law in order to stay alive.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

Ellieb
Posts: 737
Joined: 26 Jul 2008, 7:06pm

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby Ellieb » 3 Jul 2012, 1:11pm

In the Op's defence.

1: Sometimes a helmetcam can give a false impression of speed. He may not be going as fast as it looks.
2: If it is a fixed white line cycle lane he is entitled to undertake the traffic in the expectation that other vehicles will stay out of it.

However as has been said above the lane is far too narrow & I a wouldn't have cycled in it in that manner. I certainly would not have risked going up the inside of the lorry.

It is still the lorries responsibilty to leave space for the overtake.

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby thirdcrank » 3 Jul 2012, 1:17pm

As a PPS to my earlier stuff, the insurers may actually feel some justification from what they read on here and they may even discover some ideas for continuing to repudiate your claim.

See a lawyer.