Resting of cycle against closed shop

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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meic
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby meic » 7 Nov 2012, 10:13am

QUIST wrote:It was a general reply not in repsonse to one particualr post. Overall we're no further on (some) s'keepers seem to want to behave in a certain way as I do as i wish to keep my cycle safe.

Thisd si based on pure conjecture but I suspect if I ahd been dressed in a manner more pleasing to the keeper ie not dressed in high viz they would not have spoken to me in the way they did.

You may well own the property but you do not ( well you do in the sense you as amember of the public ) own the highway


I agree entirely.

I always lean my bikes against walls, I think those stands at Tescos were designed to damage bottle cages, derailleurs and to scratch frames. On the one occasion that a house owner objected, I took great pleasure in complying with her stated wishes by moving my bike a few inches to rest on a street sign instead of her wall. :mrgreen:
Yma o Hyd

thirdcrank
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Nov 2012, 10:52am

QUIST wrote: ... You may well own the property but you do not ... own the highway


Don't be too sure about that. In many cases the land over which a highway runs belongs to the owner of that land, rather than the highway authority. This isn't a trick answer, based on things like footpaths across land, because it applies to many roads "maintained at public expense." When existing roads and streets were adopted in the late 19C and early 20C, the ownership of the land often did not change. (Any owner-occupiers, especially with older houses, who do not believe me can check their deeds.) So, it's possible for somebody to be a trespasser, even on a "public" road if their purpose is unlawful. eg one of the offences colloquially referred to as "poaching" is (or was when I was at police training centre) "trespassing in pursuit of game." That could be committed on a highway because the public right of way does not include a right to go poaching. (All the case law there was from the 19C of course.)

I've not offered any sort of an answer to your original query, because it's civil law and I don't know the answer, but in the absence of anything from a lawyer I'll suggest where to look for that answer. I suspect it lies somewhere in the law of trespass. I presume the stuff on Wiki is generally correct as a starter:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_in_English_law

I do know - because it was an important element of the Larceny Acts, that the fabric of a building is "real" property ie it forms part of the land it stands on. So leaning your bike against somebody else's building wouldn't be the same tort (civil wrong) as leaning it against their car (which is personal property) even if the result might be the same. I suspect that leaning a bike against either a wall or a car amounts to a trespass, especially if they have asked you to desist. Without damage, it's a very minor trespass, of course, so it would only be somebody on a mission and with really deep pockets who might take it to court to find out. I'm still in "I suspect" mode when I suggest their summary remedy would be to remove the bike (reasonably carefully) to somewhere else. If they went a step further - like trying to shove your bike where the sun doesn't shine - you might get a decision on trespass to the person - also explained in Wiki.

Reading your last couple of posts, this doesn't seem to be about trespass at all. Your feathers have been ruffled.

QUIST
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby QUIST » 7 Nov 2012, 11:08am

My apologies, I was aware that the area designated as the highway may not be in public ownership - this was covered in an earlier post.

Yes my feathers were ruffled I suspect my comments about high viz are valid and if someone wants to quote a legal opinion i would like to reply in kind.

After all if I had been a pretty young thing with a wicker front basket would I have prompted the same response?

Incidentally, if you are cycling past a countryside property which ahs stone delineating the verge that is not an automatic indication it is the boundary of the property and the associated legal rights which go with it. (This from my surveyor father who ona number of occasiosn advised householders of their right to complain about him surveying theie property when it turned out to be part of the highway -ie not part of their property.

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meic
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby meic » 7 Nov 2012, 11:26am

I have an old property and I think it is less than 1% of the perimeter of my property which is resolved beyond reasonable dispute, plus some issues going through it.

It is best not to get into arguments about these things as the "winner" is the one with the money for solicitors.
You can be looking at £20,000 per issue needing to be resolved. The Judges tend to take a dim view of these disputes and punish with the court costs, so there is no real winner.
Yma o Hyd

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PaulCumbria
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby PaulCumbria » 7 Nov 2012, 11:52am

The obvious answer has already been proffered - a propstand. And yes, it would work perfectly with a fully loaded bike - I've used them for years when shopping, and when cycle-camping, and they work even better when a bike is heavily laden, as the weight keeps the bike solidly in its place.

And if someone parked their bike in my garden unbidden, they'd get short shrift from me and no mistaking.

kwackers
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby kwackers » 7 Nov 2012, 12:11pm

PaulCumbria wrote:And if someone parked their bike in my garden unbidden, they'd get short shrift from me and no mistaking.

This links to a DM article so all the usual disclaimers apply...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1260662/Young-family-left-fuming-motorist-leaves-car-driveway-jetting-holiday-nearby-Stansted.html

QUIST
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby QUIST » 7 Nov 2012, 12:48pm

Paul,

Thanks for your reply about propstands but I'm abit worried about what would occur -could the bike not be pushed over?.

The post wasn't meant to cover gardens - this is not the situation which occurred

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PaulCumbria
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby PaulCumbria » 7 Nov 2012, 1:08pm

QUIST wrote:Paul,

Thanks for your reply about propstands but I'm abit worried about what would occur -could the bike not be pushed over?.

The post wasn't meant to cover gardens - this is not the situation which occurred

Yes, certainly it could be pushed over. So what? It could be pushed (or more accurately pulled) over from that window, and is quite likely to receive that treatment if the window owner takes exception.

I've used propstands for years and I've never had a bike pushed over, or roll off its stand.

You could always get a trike...

thirdcrank
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Nov 2012, 1:30pm

Going on from what meic said, a remedy isn't much use if you can't use it so the law is almost irrelevant. Legal rights can only be enforced by legal means which ultimately means going to court. Giving the learned friends a chance to play in fancy dress box is expensive. Apart from that, does anybody really want all the king's horses etc., possibly aided by a jury, to settle something like this?

Civil law is largely made up of precedents - earlier court decisions - and since it's generally been powerful people who have fought the cases which created the precedents, these things don't necessarily favour the rest of us.

Incidentally, I know that something like this can be annoying. The thread reminded me of a similar incident - probably in 1961 :lol: - when I did several long rides which included riding up the A 65. I stopped and bobbed into a shop for some grub and after a couple of ticks when I came back out there was a somebody who appeared to a teenager like me as a crusty old git with no understanding of the needs of cyclists, and who told me to move my bike from his wall. I wasn't stopping anyway so I was straight on my bike and off. I can't remember if I offered him any advice as I disappeared but it's one of those inidents that got up my nose at the time, which is why I remember it after five decades. :roll:

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scottmac
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby scottmac » 7 Nov 2012, 7:39pm

Bloody Nora!!! :evil:

Three pages on where you can park a bike!!!!

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meic
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby meic » 7 Nov 2012, 8:04pm

There is a lot more about whether a cyclist can use a gate or not. :lol:

In fact it even threatened a whole government! :shock:
Yma o Hyd

thirdcrank
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Nov 2012, 8:13pm

scottmac wrote:... Three pages on where you can park a bike!!!!


And that's before we've even begun to think about the arguments for and against the closed shop. :wink:

Anybody like to start on "free riding" :?:

LollyKat
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby LollyKat » 7 Nov 2012, 8:41pm

meic wrote:There is a lot more about whether a cyclist can use a gate or not. :lol:

In fact it even threatened a whole government! :shock:

ROFL :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

J.Y.Kelly
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby J.Y.Kelly » 8 Nov 2012, 9:28am

The word tolerance springs to mind, or rather, the lack of it. It seems that everyone in these "enlightened" times is ready to get on their high horse about the most trivial of matters.
Deliberate acts of vandalism aside, the world would be a much better place with a bit more give and take.
Kelly.

kwackers
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Re: Resting of cycle against closed shop

Postby kwackers » 8 Nov 2012, 9:54am

J.Y.Kelly wrote:The word tolerance springs to mind, or rather, the lack of it. It seems that everyone in these "enlightened" times is ready to get on their high horse about the most trivial of matters.
Deliberate acts of vandalism aside, the world would be a much better place with a bit more give and take.
Kelly.

+1

You've seen what happens to rats when they're kept in cramped overcrowded conditions though? :wink: