And another fatality

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tonythompson
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And another fatality

Postby tonythompson » 17 Dec 2012, 1:05pm

Cyclist killed on his commute this morning in Southampton - once again the miserable roads here in our city are the scene of another tragic accident. Thoughts go to his family at this time of the year.

Too early to know what happened but two drivers arrested.
Crossed Oz Perth to Adelaide to highlight Barrett's Disease http://www.tonystravels.com

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jezer
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Re: And another fatality

Postby jezer » 17 Dec 2012, 1:19pm

Two drivers arrested? Will it lead to anything? I'm not holding my breath, but I hope I am wrong.
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Geriatrix
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Re: And another fatality

Postby Geriatrix » 17 Dec 2012, 4:55pm

Mountbatten Way. Know it well, it used to be part of my commute to Southampton Central. Busy dual road with fast moving traffic despite the presence of a camera trap just past the flyover. No accommodation for cyclists, I took to using Waterloo Rd running parallel.
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled - Richard Feynman

Elizabethsdad
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Re: And another fatality

Postby Elizabethsdad » 17 Dec 2012, 8:02pm

Fortunately my commute in Southampton takes me the other way along Winchester Road and out along Bassett Avenue and then through Chandlers Ford to Otterbourne - if I had to go that way not sure I would use Mountbatten Way. My wife had to be out in it today - she didn't know what had happened just that the traffic was horrendous, don't think I'll volunteer the details either as she worries about me on my bike enough as it is. Traffic on Winchester Road was bad one morning last week - solid barely moving from the Shell Garage up to Bassett Avenue on then onto the avenue itself where one police car had pulled over one motorist. Makes me think roads round here just aren't fit for cars,vans or lorries. What I mostly think of though is how the family of the cyclist must be feeling right now - condolences.

rooseybear
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Re: And another fatality

Postby rooseybear » 17 Dec 2012, 9:05pm

Had to have a little search as to why the traffic was so bad this morning and pretty shocked to see the reasons. It's tragic whenever or wherever it happens but when it's on the doorstep it just hits home so much more. Can be bad enough driving that road with all the slip roads and lane changing that's required, especially in rush hour so not a nice place to cycle, definately needs improving or a effective alternative introduced. Again, thoughts with the family as always and lets hope something comes of the charges and something happens to improve cycling in the city.

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BeeKeeper
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Re: And another fatality

Postby BeeKeeper » 18 Dec 2012, 4:02pm


Geriatrix
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Re: And another fatality

Postby Geriatrix » 19 Dec 2012, 9:59am

BeeKeeper wrote:A bit more grim detail here: http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/1 ... sh/?ref=nt

The off-ramp shown in the photo has rumble strips which rattle your teeth when you cycle over them. Their existence is a symptom of the need to reduce the speed of vehicles coming off the A33. If I remember correctly the speed limit on the A33 at that point is 40mph but speeding is endemic. Three lanes have been squeezed into the available space over the flyover leaving no space for a hard shoulder or any safety margin for cyclists.

Although driver error was probably the cause, the fatality could probably have been avoided if cyclists had been accommodated in the infrastructure. It's an unpleasant road to cycle on but I can guess why the cyclist chose to use that route. It avoids a longer detour through suburban roads if you use West Quay Road to reach your destination.

Road planners should be compelled to acquire a more tactile experience of the effort needed to get to a destination than a small movement of the right foot, before they are put in charge of infrastructure layout and design.
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled - Richard Feynman

stewartpratt
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Re: And another fatality

Postby stewartpratt » 19 Dec 2012, 10:55am

I think "unpleasant road to cycle on" is an understatement. I've been racking my brains to think of a road I'd less like to be on and I'm struggling. It's a perfect storm as far as cycling goes.

That said, to the best of my knowledge (I've moved away now and haven't cycled along there for a while) there's a cycle path - admittedly mostly a shared path which isn't ideal, but it's one of very few roads where I'd actually use it - all the way from Totton to Paynes Road, and from there you can scoot across to the bottom of Shirley Road and then down past the station. It's about the same distance as that bit of flyover where the incident occurred and vastly safer. So it's baffling that someone would choose the flyover. If anything I think the key issue here is that cycle route signage is generally poor: if you were following destination names you'd end up having to stick to the routes signed for cars. The blue circles just tell you there's a cycle path, they mostly have no indication of where the hell it goes.

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horizon
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Re: And another fatality

Postby horizon » 19 Dec 2012, 11:09am

stewartpratt wrote:If anything I think the key issue here is that cycle route signage is generally poor: if you were following destination names you'd end up having to stick to the routes signed for cars. The blue circles just tell you there's a cycle path, they mostly have no indication of where the hell it goes.


There is a similar road in Plymouth where what cycle signage there is takes you into a dangerous merging dual carriageway. Ignoring the signposting will take you along a safe, quiet and parallel route (the old road in fact) next to but above the the new cutting. A short while after cycling there myself a cyclist was found dead in the road. Of course there was the usual hue and cry to find the driver but, as will be the case in Southampton, no attempt to find the cause of the accident, no attempt to bring to court those who should be there (the Highway Authority), no attempt to propagate the lessons of the accident, no attempt to develop different road behaviours, no attempt to put in temporary provisions such as new signage, no attempt to prosecute the engineers who designed the road. The drivers will no doubt get some sentence or another, everyone will wring their hands and we wait for the next fatality.

I've started new thread here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=71185
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

Geriatrix
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Re: And another fatality

Postby Geriatrix » 19 Dec 2012, 11:33am

stewartpratt wrote:I think "unpleasant road to cycle on" is an understatement. I've been racking my brains to think of a road I'd less like to be on and I'm struggling. It's a perfect storm as far as cycling goes.

I moved from that area two years ago but I'm familiar with the cycling on both the A33 as well as the alternative cycle path because I cycled that route daily.

I know why he used it. It's shorter and faster and has a better road surface. It's the same reason most commuter cyclists choose a more dangerous route over a longer safer route so he is by no means unique.

The alternative route which is a mixture of road and shared facility is poorly thought out. The road surface is of poor quality and the shared facility leads cyclist past the front of bus shelters and brings you into conflict with pedestrians. The cycle path that you mentioned is also only available in a westbound direction at the Mountbatten way flyover. If you are heading eastbound you have to take the Payne's slip road off the A33 and then onto Waterloo road and this is a more significant detour. The cyclist was heading eastbound.
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled - Richard Feynman

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meic
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Re: And another fatality

Postby meic » 19 Dec 2012, 11:43am

horizon wrote:
stewartpratt wrote:If anything I think the key issue here is that cycle route signage is generally poor: if you were following destination names you'd end up having to stick to the routes signed for cars. The blue circles just tell you there's a cycle path, they mostly have no indication of where the hell it goes.


There is a similar road in Plymouth where what cycle signage there is takes you into a dangerous merging dual carriageway. Ignoring the signposting will take you along a safe, quiet and parallel route (the old road in fact) next to but above the the new cutting. A short while after cycling there myself a cyclist was found dead in the road. Of course there was the usual hue and cry to find the driver but, as will be the case in Southampton, no attempt to find the cause of the accident, no attempt to bring to court those who should be there (the Highway Authority), no attempt to propagate the lessons of the accident, no attempt to develop different road behaviours, no attempt to put in temporary provisions such as new signage, no attempt to prosecute the engineers who designed the road. The drivers will no doubt get some sentence or another, everyone will wring their hands and we wait for the next fatality.

I've started new thread here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=71185


I can think of a few examples where the road engineers, create conflict and danger. For example where they merge two lanes into one (especially at the exit of a roundabout) or where they erect cycle traps (pedestrian refuges).
However most of the accidents are caused by the motorists driving too close and speeding and for that they should be prosecuted in an attempt to break the lethal habits.
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stewartpratt
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Re: And another fatality

Postby stewartpratt » 19 Dec 2012, 11:45am

Debatable as to whether going via Paynes Road and the station is a significant detour. I would argue it isn't, but it's subjective.

I think the issue is simply awareness of the route. If you're going to West Quay or the docks and you don't know the best route to cycle then you'd quite possibly take the dual carriageway. If you were aware of the alternative then personally I think you'd need a few screws loose to choose the route where the incident occurred.

There's a significant part of me (but not all of me) that feels cyclists should be removed from 50mph+ dual carriageways. All the ones I can think of are hideously dangerous - certainly dangerous enough to warrant taking the nearest alternative route even without having to demand additional infrastructure.

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horizon
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Re: And another fatality

Postby horizon » 19 Dec 2012, 12:04pm

stewartpratt wrote:There's a significant part of me (but not all of me) that feels cyclists should be removed from 50mph+ dual carriageways.


I agree with you, and as a cyclist I too hesitate. However, should a proper enquiry conclude that the road as it stands is indeed a death trap and cyclists should not use it, then it would at least ignite a debate in Southampton as to what should be done - improve the alternatives, make the signage clear, warn cyclists away from it, improve the slip roads, change the speed limit etc etc. As things stand, none of this will happen: the drivers will be prosecuted, the Highway Authority will laugh itself silly and the next death will happen.
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

stewartpratt
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Re: And another fatality

Postby stewartpratt » 19 Dec 2012, 12:13pm

Consider a (fairly) nearby example: the Hindhead tunnel. It's a 50mph bit of dual carriageway and although not a motorway, all non-motorway traffic is prohibited. So there is precedent.

Though given the two examples, it's difficult not to infer that the consideration of the highways engineer is the problem of a collision in an enclosed space (which is presumably just fire risk) rather than the safety of the more vulnerable traffic - from the point of view of the latter there's no obvious significant difference (in fact the nature of the Millbrook Road is more dangerous, with many more junctions - none of which are cyclist-friendly).

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661-Pete
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Re: And another fatality

Postby 661-Pete » 19 Dec 2012, 12:17pm

Cyclists are banned from nearly all road tunnels in the UK, I believe. Certainly, the two near where I live: the Cuilfail Tunnel in Lewes (A26) and the Southwick Tunnel near Shoreham (A27), both have 'no cycling' signs. There are signed alternatives, though in the case of the Southwick it's quite a long detour.
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