Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

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Mick F
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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby Mick F » 20 Nov 2018, 10:16am

mjr wrote:
Mick F wrote:
mjr wrote: ................. case law or legislation of what "propelling" is or isn't. Does anyone know any?


From the other thread.
Mick F wrote:Pushing vs Propelling.
You must have a driving licence to push a broken car on the road. It's still a vehicle even though the engine and gearbox are knackered or non-existent.
Therefore, pushing a cycle on a road has to conform to the rules of the road.

What's the source for that, please?
I wish I could remember. :oops:

It came with the same info regarding motor-mowers on the road, engine running or not.
Also, pushing a motorbike requires a relevant motorcycle licence - and you have to wear a helmet too.

May not be able to remember where I read it, but I do remember the facts.
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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby gaz » 20 Nov 2018, 10:19am

kwackers wrote:My real point being you need a sensible cut off otherwise it gets silly. IMO that sensible cut off involves actually being sat on the bike.

That cut off would allow me to ride towards a stop line, swing a leg over so no longer sat on the saddle and freewheel over the stop line with negligible reduction in speed, swing my leg back over and start propelling again :wink: . I could also scoot through a pedestrianised area.

Dismounted might be a more sensible cut off but even that plays out badly in the first scenario.

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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby thirdcrank » 20 Nov 2018, 10:25am

On the matter of pushing a motor vehicle being driving it, it all depends on the circumstances: what I referred to as "baggage." There's plenty of case law. Basically, it involves having a certain level of control, but losing control doesn't stop somebody being a driver.

For anybody wanting to research the cases, it's another good reason to get a copy of Wilkinson's.

=================================================================
PS Don't forget there are other offences like attempting to drive and aiding and abetting somebody else to commit an offence.

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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby kwackers » 20 Nov 2018, 10:49am

gaz wrote:That cut off would allow me to ride towards a stop line, swing a leg over so no longer sat on the saddle and freewheel over the stop line with negligible reduction in speed, swing my leg back over and start propelling again :wink: . I could also scoot through a pedestrianised area.

Dismounted might be a more sensible cut off but even that plays out badly in the first scenario.

I don't think anyone would be fooled by scooting.
But IMO if you've got both feet on the floor and your bottom isn't on the seat then it's no longer a vehicle, could be a pushchair, wheelbarrow, garden truck, even a roller skate.

It makes for a very simple distinction without all the daft edge cases that surround the current definition.

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Mick F
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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby Mick F » 20 Nov 2018, 10:51am

I remember now! :D

I use to take a magazine called Popular Motoring.
They had an active letters page and a Q&A section for legal matters. Not unlike Cycle in that regard maybe.

One letter and answer I remember - and I took a cutting to show my late father-in-law. It concerned a Reliant three-wheeler which F-in-Law also drove. I scanned the letter some years ago, and still have it.

Very much OT sorry :oops: but it was definitely the place I read the info about needing a DL to push a broken car etc.
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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby gaz » 20 Nov 2018, 11:10am

kwackers wrote:But IMO if you've got both feet on the floor and your bottom isn't on the seat then it's no longer a vehicle, could be a pushchair, wheelbarrow, garden truck, even a roller skate.

We know that a bicycle is a vehicle, it has been defined as such in case law.
Image
The above pic is a highway sign. I don't know when it went up (BTW it is still there), it pre-dates transport font so 1950's or earlier. The highway authority that erected it clearly felt that perambulators (pushchair) and handcarts (wheelbarrow, garden truck) were vehicles requiring exemption from the prohibition.

It is not clear where they stood on roller skates :wink: .

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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby kwackers » 20 Nov 2018, 11:22am

gaz wrote:Even that definition still allows me* to ride towards a stop line, perform a running dismount, cross the line on foot and mount up again. It's not about fooling anyone, it's about defining the conditions to be met for an offence to be comitted.

*Probably not me, I'd end up flat on my face if I tried it. :wink:

And why is running across the road an offence? I do it all the time and nobody tries to stop me.
What difference would pushing something make?

The current system is a nonsense.
When your granny can't push her bike across a busy road without being prosecuted for jumping a red light then you have to accept that's its got nothing to do with road safety and everything to do with pedantry.

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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby gaz » 20 Nov 2018, 12:21pm

kwackers wrote:My real point being you need a sensible cut off otherwise it gets silly. IMO that sensible cut off involves actually being sat on the bike.

When I pointed out that particular cut off was flawed you agreed and redefined it.
kwackers wrote:I don't think anyone would be fooled by scooting.
But IMO if you've got both feet on the floor and your bottom isn't on the seat then it's no longer a vehicle, ...

It makes for a very simple distinction without all the daft edge cases that surround the current definition.

It doesn't.
kwackers wrote:
gaz wrote:Even that definition still allows me* to ride towards a stop line, perform a running dismount, cross the line on foot and mount up again. It's not about fooling anyone, it's about defining the conditions to be met for an offence to be comitted.

*Probably not me, I'd end up flat on my face if I tried it. :wink:

And why is running across the road an offence? I do it all the time and nobody tries to stop me.
What difference would pushing something make?

The current system is a nonsense.

Yes, the current system includes some nonsense. IMO I illustrated above that a different system just creates some different nonsense.

Hows about I ride up to the stop line, jump off, fold up my Brompton ... a whole new level of nonsense to unpick :wink:

kwackers wrote:When your granny can't push her bike across a busy road without being prosecuted for jumping a red light then you have to accept that's its got nothing to do with road safety and everything to do with pedantry.

No, it's just a daft edge case that exists under the present system, change the system and you'll get a different daft edge case.

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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby brynpoeth » 20 Nov 2018, 12:40pm

One could wheel a folded Brompton, BSO/Bike-shaped-object across the road

The policeperson would not know which law to apply :?
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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby kwackers » 20 Nov 2018, 12:47pm

gaz wrote:No, it's just a daft edge case that exists under the present system, change the system and you'll get a different daft edge case.

Not at all.

If you're off the bike and pushing it then there are no edge cases - absolutely none!

What even constitutes a bike?

If you're pushing something then you're not cycling.
Pretty much everyone can agree when someone is riding a bicycle and when they're not.

The current definitions potentially don't even allow you to dismount and push a bike in a pedestrianised area or anywhere there are 'no cycling' signs.

What we've got is just a system for lawyers to make money with technicalities and nonsense discussions.

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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby Mick F » 20 Nov 2018, 12:57pm

kwackers wrote:What even constitutes a bike?
We've had this particular nugget of a conversation many times on here. :wink:

The Brompton thing is difficult.
What about dropping out the QR front wheel of a standard bike and wheeling your bike on its rear wheel?
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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby kwackers » 20 Nov 2018, 1:08pm

Mick F wrote:
kwackers wrote:What even constitutes a bike?
We've had this particular nugget of a conversation many times on here. :wink:

I'm sure.

My point though is it's only complicated because there's a vested interest in it being so.

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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby thirdcrank » 20 Nov 2018, 3:06pm

kwackers wrote: ... My point though is it's only complicated because there's a vested interest in it being so.


I'll offer a bit of history. In the early days of the pedal cycle there was a desire to control its use and that was done by declaring it to be a carriage. Later, and almost by accident, the case of Ellis v Nott Bower decided that a pedal cycle was a vehicle. AIUI, the CTC as it then was used that vehicle status to campaign for the right to cycle on the carriageway. The CTC - rightly or wrongly - steadfastly opposed separate provision through much of the 20C. Road conditions have changed, one result being that with increased congestion, cycling is often the most practical way to get around. There's a whole generation of road users who have grown up with virtually nil enforcement of traffic legislation. Until relatively recently (in my timescale) the lack of a way to be able to identify summary offenders for the service of a summons meant cyclists were pretty much ignored and some have got used to that.

PACE introduced a power of arrest and fixed penalties made process easier. This seems to have thrown up all sorts of anomalies which didn't matter when nobody was bothering. It seems complicated because it's outdated.

Ellis v Nott Bower:-
viewtopic.php?p=34561#p34561

(Older readers will know that there's nothing new in this post. )

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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby Joenz » 17 Dec 2018, 2:29am

meic wrote:My money is on the ruling given in the famous Zebra crossing case which established that a pedestrian pushing a bike is a pedestrian not a cyclist.

Sorry I know this is a very old post but I'm desperately trying to find the ruling information on the zebra crossing case you wrote about. Could someone provide a link for me? Thank you

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Re: Red Lights - Pushing a Cycle and the Law

Postby rjb » 17 Dec 2018, 8:19am

Here's another situation which I see occasionally. Bus gates where the road is closed to all vehicles except buses, pedal cycles and emergency vehicles. There is no "physical gate" just a camera. I have on several occasions witnessed motorbike riders stopping before the camera, dismounting and pushing their machine through before remounting and riding off. :roll:

What's the legality of that.????
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