Cautionary tale

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Audax67
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Cautionary tale

Post by Audax67 »

Last year, one of my Audax road captains had a very nasty accident when her fork broke. I mentioned it in here at the time. The bike was only a couple of months old so she claimed against the suppliers, and the results of the expert examination of the bike have just come in. It turns out that she had filed off the "lawyer lips" on the drop-outs so as to be able to change the wheel more quickly (she does sportifs etc). This was enough to completely exonerate manufacturer and retailer, and make her liable for all costs.

I know that it takes 6 twiddles of the QR to drop my front wheel out. This takes about a second, ditto when putting it back. It's pretty idiotic to risk so much for so little.
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meic
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by meic »

Obviously filing off the tiny burrs (lawyers' lips) has no effect on the strength of the fork blades.
So it appears there has been some (far from unusual) failure in expert advice or legal advice or the legal system.
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reohn2
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by reohn2 »

Audax67 wrote:....I know that it takes 6 twiddles of the QR to drop my front wheel out. This takes about a second, ditto when putting it back. It's pretty idiotic to risk so much for so little.


Whilst I agree,unless racing wheel fast removal isn't necessary,IMO it's completely ridiculous that anyone(namely the bike manufacturer) can get away with such a technicality when it would seem(on face value at least) that it had no bearing on the fork failing in the first place.
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Mick F
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by Mick F »

What would they have said if the forks hadn't had the "lips" in the first place?
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Si
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by Si »

Where did the fork break- did one of the dropouts break? Or was it the more usual legs parting from the crown , or steerer becoming unbonded type of thing? If the former then I guess filing the lawyer lips may be a more reasonable excuse not to pay out.

Also, I wonder if they are suggesting that the forks might have been put in a vice or some such while the filing was done - thus the filing itself might not have caused a problem but any means of clamping the fork up, esp if a lightweight carbon one, might have dome something to it. Otherwise I agree with everyone else - is it not up to the manufacturer to show that her filing caused the problem?
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Audax67
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by Audax67 »

meic wrote:Obviously filing off the tiny burrs (lawyers' lips) has no effect on the strength of the fork blades.
So it appears there has been some (far from unusual) failure in expert advice or legal advice or the legal system.


The expert's report says that the damage is consistent with the loss of the front wheel. It suggests that the front wheel came out of the left dropout, thereby putting excessive stress on the right blade of the fork, which accordingly fractured. The left-hand blade then came into contact with the road, broke across most of its thickness but remained attached and bent back at 90°. The absence of the lips facilitated the wheel coming out, and the fact that they had been voluntarily removed cleared the manufacturer and retailer. There was no reference to the manner in which the lips might have been removed.

It sounds feasible to me.

I was on a different part of the circuit that day. Sylvie - the rider - arrived later than the rest of her group. It's likely that she set up in a hurry and then went like a bat out of hell to try and catch them at the first control. At the time of the accident she was doing 35 kph. The butcher's bill was horrible, and she's still not finished mending.
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Audax67
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by Audax67 »

Mick F wrote:What would they have said if the forks hadn't had the "lips" in the first place?


It would have been a pretty old bike then, and the break wouldn't have been so surprising.
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by 661-Pete »

The legal area of guarantees and warranties is a very 'grey area' and there are many ways for the manufacturer to 'get out' of a claim. They may not be fair, but if they're written into the contract, not much you can do about it. I seem to recall, once when I bought a computer, written into the small print was something like, if I opened up the case in order to plug in a peripheral card, that would 'invalidate the warranty' or something.... Absurd but legal. :(

I would advise, unless you really need split-second wheel changes, leave the lawyer lips in place, however much of a nuisance they are. And isn't there some advice on Sheldon Brown? Such as, if you have what he called 'boutique' skewers, you should retain the lawyer lips. Also if you have disc brakes. This last is because of a fundamental design flaw in front disc brakes...
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by Ayesha »

Of my bikes, only those less than 15 years old have these pesky ‘lawyer lips’.
Two of my bikes, both carbon forks, I have left the lawyer lips intact. Another two bikes with alloy ends, I have filed them off. Another three bikes pre nineteen eighties, haven’t got lawyer lips, as you’d expect.
What needs to be noted when filing off lawyer lips is to have any kind of taper resulting in the exit end being thicker than the fork end of the dropout. If the exit end is thinner than the fork end of the dropout, the QR will want to vibrate OUT.
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by [XAP]Bob »

661-Pete wrote:The legal area of guarantees and warranties is a very 'grey area' and there are many ways for the manufacturer to 'get out' of a claim. They may not be fair, but if they're written into the contract, not much you can do about it. I seem to recall, once when I bought a computer, written into the small print was something like, if I opened up the case in order to plug in a peripheral card, that would 'invalidate the warranty' or something.... Absurd but legal. :(


That particular example may not be legal. There is protection for "unfair contract terms" which includes things like software contracts printed inside a sealed package...
Preventing you from doing a *designed* upgrade is not a reasonable condition. It's not as if a PCI/PCIE/ISA/AGP/PCI64 card is hard to install.
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by mrjemm »

Audax67 wrote:The expert's report says that the damage is consistent with the loss of the front wheel. It suggests that the front wheel came out of the left dropout, thereby putting excessive stress on the right blade of the fork, which accordingly fractured. The left-hand blade then came into contact with the road, broke across most of its thickness but remained attached and bent back at 90°. The absence of the lips facilitated the wheel coming out, and the fact that they had been voluntarily removed cleared the manufacturer and retailer. There was no reference to the manner in which the lips might have been removed.


So the accident was down to the lack of lawyer lips? And she had the idea of claiming against the supplier?

I am sorry to be harsh, but that comes across as rather cheeky to me. To put it mildly.

I must ask though, if this was a disc-braked bike, which is what is typically blamed for such hazards, even if it can be designed around with different angled drop-outs and positioned calipers seemingly.

Really do annoy me though, those little tabs. Mostly on the workstand though- outside I just lay down the bike, but on the workstand they're troublesome. I guess I should just support the wheel better when I want to remove, but...
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by TonyR »

Audax67 wrote:
meic wrote:Obviously filing off the tiny burrs (lawyers' lips) has no effect on the strength of the fork blades.
So it appears there has been some (far from unusual) failure in expert advice or legal advice or the legal system.


The expert's report says that the damage is consistent with the loss of the front wheel. It suggests that the front wheel came out of the left dropout, thereby putting excessive stress on the right blade of the fork, which accordingly fractured. The left-hand blade then came into contact with the road, broke across most of its thickness but remained attached and bent back at 90°. The absence of the lips facilitated the wheel coming out, and the fact that they had been voluntarily removed cleared the manufacturer and retailer. There was no reference to the manner in which the lips might have been removed.

It sounds feasible to me.

I was on a different part of the circuit that day. Sylvie - the rider - arrived later than the rest of her group. It's likely that she set up in a hurry and then went like a bat out of hell to try and catch them at the first control. At the time of the accident she was doing 35 kph. The butcher's bill was horrible, and she's still not finished mending.


Its sounds reasonably plausible to me too that she didn't do things up properly and the rest followed from that. Its unusual for a fork blade to fracture like that, let alone two. If that is the case then the manufacturer should not be help responsible for her lack of attention and the consequences that came from the lack of lawyers lips that are there to protect against such lacking of attention.
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by breakwellmz »

+1
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Audax67
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by Audax67 »

Update: I have since learnt that she had in fact ridden 15 km to the start from home and done 1h15 of the circuit before the accident. The accident happened on perfectly smooth road, and the dropout on the fork blade that is supposed to have dug into the tarmac shows no damage at all, not even a scratch. Puts a different complexion on it, but whether she can now make her voice heard or not is impossible to say.

This was a 3000 € (~£2600) bike, incidentally.
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Re: Cautionary tale

Post by Vantage »

I'm not a huge fan of lawer lips and have always filed them off without incident, but I can see their use in some circumstances. I once knew a bloke who used the quick release lever for leverage to twist the nut around to tighten it. His dad who was even less mechanically minded showed him that trick. :shock:
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