Lycra Lout Surprise

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Shootist
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby Shootist » 27 Jun 2013, 11:22am

This forum is one that I might regard as, for lack of a better term, 'middle class'. Neither a bad nor a good thing. It is very interesting, and very sad, then to see the low regard in which the police are held by so many members, and with considerable justification. As for it all being the fault of the Met, I think that Cleveland, Liverpool, Manchester, West Midlands, and a few others are doing their best to keep up. :roll:
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

mrjemm
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby mrjemm » 27 Jun 2013, 12:30pm

Seems to me that a lot of folk are seeing the uniforms, rather than the humans inside them (or not in them in this case).

There are fools in every group, and as with drivers on a motorway, and cyclists in the street, it's those that stand out.

Is not criticising the 'police' in general is another form of prejudice? Blaming the soldiers for the war...

Shootist
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby Shootist » 27 Jun 2013, 12:57pm

mrjemm wrote:Seems to me that a lot of folk are seeing the uniforms, rather than the humans inside them (or not in them in this case).

There are fools in every group, and as with drivers on a motorway, and cyclists in the street, it's those that stand out.

Is not criticising the 'police' in general is another form of prejudice? Blaming the soldiers for the war...


By your philosophy, we would not be saying anything bad about the SS. They were, after all, just soldiers. But, of course, their motto was "My honour Is My Loyalty." and they committed countless war crimes to which their general defence was "We were only obeying orders." While many of them as individuals were brave and decent soldiers, they were part of an organisation that was rotten to the core.

The Stephen Lawrence enquiry was, IIRC, the first to describe a police force as institutionally racist, a pretty damning statement by any standards. While individual examples of police misbehaviour are not hard to find, there comes a point when you have to ask whether they are institutionally FUBARed.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

mrjemm
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby mrjemm » 27 Jun 2013, 1:13pm

Hmmm, does that count as Godwin's?

So I am naive... But oh my, that's quite a jump. Saying that someone who works for the police and RLJs on the way in is comparable to... Oh go play, I'm not bothering going any further.

Shootist
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby Shootist » 27 Jun 2013, 1:35pm

mrjemm wrote:Hmmm, does that count as Godwin's?

So I am naive... But oh my, that's quite a jump. Saying that someone who works for the police and RLJs on the way in is comparable to... Oh go play, I'm not bothering going any further.


Godwin's law merely states that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1" It doesn't automatically state that the comparison is in any way at fault. It seems that you cannot differentiate between a general principle and a personal comparison. In any event, I consider the comparison of principles valid, as I happen to believe that this country is heading towards a police state, albeit a very British police state.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

kwackers
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby kwackers » 27 Jun 2013, 1:39pm

Shootist wrote:Godwin's law merely states that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1" It doesn't automatically state that the comparison is in any way at fault. It seems that you cannot differentiate between a general principle and a personal comparison. In any event, I consider the comparison of principles valid, as I happen to believe that this country is heading towards a police state, albeit a very British police state.

Stasi might have been more appropriate (particularly with ref police state) and it would have avoided Godwin...

byegad
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby byegad » 27 Jun 2013, 2:13pm

I agree the Met are giving Police a bad name but they are not unaided by other forces. One of the local Forces is in danger of going broke due the the investigations into a large proportion of their senior officers, who are/were on 'Gardening Leave' while lengthy investigations are made. They are not the only force helping the Met in their drive to the bottom of the barrel!
"I thought of that while riding my bike." -Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

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pliptrot
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby pliptrot » 27 Jun 2013, 4:04pm

Having lived in America I can confirm through some dealings with the police there what it means to give dangerously stupid people a gun and a badge. I always imagined that the police in the UK were more like reasonable, civilised human beings, but it seems not. Here in Berlin I may be the only person within miles who stops at red lights (cyclists, naturlich), and I was contemplating "going with the flow" when a friend told me he'd just been fined e80 for jumping a red light (on a deserted road at 2am, wizz zee German polizie hiding in zee busches).

snibgo
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby snibgo » 27 Jun 2013, 6:16pm

To supply some balance: after I was attacked in the street last year, I was grateful that the police quickly identified the culprits, gathered evidence and took them to court.

Milfred Cubicle
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby Milfred Cubicle » 28 Jun 2013, 8:49am

I have to agree, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to maintain a high regard for police officers. I spoke to a senior officer recently, who was part of my local force's anti-fraud/corruption unit. This is not, as you might expect, dealing with 'public' crimes. It's the force's way of policing fraud in its own ranks. He said that whereas for a certain generation, drugs etc. are simply not an issue, nowadays a portion of new recruits see casual drug use as the norm! Whilst it's good to see that they are being proactive, it doesn't bode well if police have to police themselves, or that some regard criminal offences as 'normal'. If they can take hard drugs, and even misappropriate drugs taken as evidence, it's hardly surprising that they take such a casual approach to red light and pavement jumping.
I only hope that, like this particular officer, the vast majority of police are decent, rational people. He still cared about public welfare, and the moral integrity of his own profession. Let's hope his type pass it on to the more upstanding younger officers.

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tykeboy2003
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby tykeboy2003 » 28 Jun 2013, 10:17am

As a law-abiding middle class man from a working class background, I have very little regard for the police; they are never there when they should be and always seem to turn up when I carry a bike on the back of my car obscuring my number plate for example.

The way that the police have been used by the state against its citizens over the years sickens me to the core - remember the miner's strike in 1984? Not to mention the way they cover up and close ranks when something goes wrong that they are responsible for, such as Hillsborough.

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meic
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby meic » 28 Jun 2013, 10:21am

they are never there when they should be and always seem to turn up when I carry a bike on the back of my car obscuring my number plate for example.


So there is at least one time when they are there when they should be. :wink:

The ideal Police catch all other people who are breaking the law but ignore all of my minor indiscretions.
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tykeboy2003
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby tykeboy2003 » 28 Jun 2013, 10:35am

Sorry but you miss the point completely, I would not in any way mind being picked up for my minor indiscressions so long as other peoples' major indiscressions are equally enforced. For example I drive at a reasonable 65/70 mph on the motorway and am constantly bullied and harassed by idiots who want to drive at 90+. Where are the police then? Remembering of course that such driving is responsible for massive costs to the country in terms of time spent in traffic jams and hospitalisation of the victims not to mention loss of life, whereas my carrying a bike and obscuring my numberplate does exactly what harm to who?

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661-Pete
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby 661-Pete » 28 Jun 2013, 10:36am

Maybe we're expecting too much of the BiB. I don't know who else has sussed this, but PC Dixon of Dock Green was only a fictitious character! :lol:

My own personal dealings with Mr Plod have always been favourable, no complaints, but then my 'sample size' is pretty small. I don't doubt that things do go wrong. I remember a friend of mine, back in my student days (1970s), who complained that every time he drove home from work he was stopped by the Police on some pretext or other. His only crime? To be of Asian origin and have a dark complexion :evil: . They used to back off once he told them he was a magistrate. Yes, institutional racism was certainly around long before Stephen Lawrence.

And, strangely, as a small child (1950s now), I was urged by my own parents to keep away from the police, not have too much to do with them. Indeed they were unhappy about my going to play with a school friend whose father was a copper. This is not a prejudice which I sustained into adulthood. A very odd attitude for a respectable middle-class couple to strike, you might well think, until I explain that their view was coloured by their having had to flee for their lives from the Gestapo in central Europe.

Godwin's law has already been mentioned... :|
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kwackers
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Re: Lycra Lout Surprise

Postby kwackers » 28 Jun 2013, 10:56am

tykeboy2003 wrote:I would not in any way mind being picked up for my minor indiscressions so long as other peoples' major indiscressions are equally enforced.

Law enforcement - especially motoring has always been a dice throw. My take is if I've done something wrong and am caught then it's my own fault, when I see someone else doing something then I keep my fingers crossed and hope they're spotted (pretty rare these days).

Anecdotally:

Near me there's been a spate of bike thefts, my partners Raleigh folder was nicked from the station, worth probably about £50 but in pretty good nick. The police were very helpful, reviewed CCTV footage (not directly visible but blurry character seen riding away on what was probably her bike), a week later the bike was seen in the town center by a member of the public, again they reviewed the CCTV but sadly it was facing the wrong way.
Absolutely no problems there with their response.

In contrast a guy that lives 200 yards away had an expensive (£1000) MTB stolen from outside the local Sainsburys, same force, CCTV but no interest. Just handed a crime number and told to claim off his insurance (and he had to beg for the crime number). The guy at the store was pretty helpful and found the footage of the bike being taken, but a week after the event he reckons the police haven't been to view or request it.

This sort of thing (and the randomness of policing) is imo what drives people nuts. They at least could make an effort to look like our taxes aren't wasted.