Speeding...

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Postboxer
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Re: Speeding...

Postby Postboxer » 17 Jan 2014, 1:42pm

I just think the cars are too close together when he pulls out, almost as though if the driver was going 50mph he still wouldn't be able to avoid it.

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Mick F
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Re: Speeding...

Postby Mick F » 17 Jan 2014, 1:46pm

That's the point.

The chap pulling out made a mistake.

Even if the road has a 50mph limit, there was a junction, and junctions have warning signs on their approach. In an ideal world, drivers would take heed of warning signs and slow down.

Speed limits are limits, not targets.

You never know when a driver is going to make a mistake, and you should be aware of the mistakes of others.
Mick F. Cornwall

Postboxer
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Re: Speeding...

Postby Postboxer » 17 Jan 2014, 2:02pm

I know that's the point, but it looks like the guy pulling out has made a massive mistake, pulling out right in front of a car, I would prefer it if he made a smaller mistake, pulling out when the approaching car was further away but still not having the time to make his manoeuvre, leading to a collision. That way, it can't be so easily dismissed by saying that the driver coming along the road could do nothing to avoid it. If people are going to make massive mistakes like that, there might be no way to avoid it.

The driver on the road also seems to take a long time to react, so people's mentality that they are a better than average driver means that they'll think that they would do better.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Speeding...

Postby [XAP]Bob » 17 Jan 2014, 2:07pm

I think you're over analysing it again - the point is that other people make mistakes, and we are often in a position to mitigate those errors. I'd hope that people realise that the opposite is also true, we often make mistakes and other people are often in a position to mitigate them.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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Mick F
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Re: Speeding...

Postby Mick F » 17 Jan 2014, 3:04pm

Postboxer wrote:I know that's the point, but it looks like the guy pulling out has made a massive mistake, pulling out right in front of a car,
When we lived in Scotland, the road home from Dunfermline came up a hill to a roundabout.

The roundabout was a four exit crossroads basically, and coming up hill, the car's front window RH "A pillar" to the right of the driver - Me! - was dead in-line with traffic approaching from the right.

The amount of times I nearly entered the roundabout honestly believing the road to be empty scared the living daylights out of Mrs Mick F in the passenger seat, and no doubt the driver of the car that would have slammed into us.

I made mistakes. The car that would have hit us may have been blameless.

I learned to lean forward to look properly.
These days, the road is busier and slower, but back in the 70s they were 60mph limits.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=dunfer ... 85,,0,3.07
Mick F. Cornwall

manybikes
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Re: Speeding...

Postby manybikes » 17 Jan 2014, 6:23pm

I note that this is from New Zealand which I find interesting. When we were there a few years ago on holiday we saw three - yes three - very serious collisions at junctions just like that and "miles from anywhere" . I was surprised because traffic levels I experienced were much lower than in southern UK. I came to the conclusion then that rural motorists just do not expect to see other vehicles approaching as the rest of the journey has been quiet and therefore were not paying sufficient attention. It certainly made me more cautious when driving over there.
So I see this as a culturally focused campaign video which never the less has implications for us all in our environment.

kwackers
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Re: Speeding...

Postby kwackers » 17 Jan 2014, 6:32pm

manybikes wrote:I came to the conclusion then that rural motorists just do not expect to see other vehicles approaching as the rest of the journey has been quiet and therefore were not paying sufficient attention

Pretty much it except it goes further. It's all about risk. Whether it's speeding, overtaking a cyclist too closely or pretty much any activity the reality of it is the risk to an individual is small. So after a bit people start to take those risks because when they do nothing bad happens...

Of course, that's per individual.

On a country wide scale it turns out that millions of people increasing the risk slightly results in some extra deaths and injuries. The problem is of course most people don't 'get' it - that's why that advert works (for me at least).

reohn2
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Re: Speeding...

Postby reohn2 » 17 Jan 2014, 11:24pm

That is one very good anti speeding/think about others/careful driving video and as others have said(a UK version) should be aired on UK TV.
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Tonyf33
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Re: Speeding...

Postby Tonyf33 » 20 Jan 2014, 5:54pm

Mick F wrote:That's the point.

The chap pulling out made a mistake.

Even if the road has a 50mph limit, there was a junction, and junctions have warning signs on their approach. In an ideal world, drivers would take heed of warning signs and slow down.

Speed limits are limits, not targets.
You never know when a driver is going to make a mistake, and you should be aware of the mistakes of others.

Going by the majority of driving instructor's I've heard the posted limit is a target though, learners are encouraged to drive at the posted speed otherwise they are admonished for it.

karlt
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Re: Speeding...

Postby karlt » 21 Jan 2014, 10:38am

Tonyf33 wrote:
Mick F wrote:That's the point.

The chap pulling out made a mistake.

Even if the road has a 50mph limit, there was a junction, and junctions have warning signs on their approach. In an ideal world, drivers would take heed of warning signs and slow down.

Speed limits are limits, not targets.
You never know when a driver is going to make a mistake, and you should be aware of the mistakes of others.

Going by the majority of driving instructor's I've heard the posted limit is a target though, learners are encouraged to drive at the posted speed otherwise they are admonished for it.


it's subtle. There is a requirement to make reasonable progress. This means that unless conditions dictate otherwise there's no reason to drive below the limit; it will be the speed everyone else is expecting motorised traffic to be moving at and therefore reduce speed differentials.

Bicycler
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Re: Speeding...

Postby Bicycler » 21 Jan 2014, 11:39am

...with other motorised vehicles. It increases the speed differential with all other road users.

I passed my test (rather late) about 5 years ago. The driving instructor told me that I should be doing the speed limit of 20, 30, 40, 50 where conditions made it a safe speed. Though he did say that there was not necessarily any need to be at 60 or 70 on a National Speed Limit road.

karlt
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Re: Speeding...

Postby karlt » 21 Jan 2014, 1:06pm

Bicycler wrote:...with other motorised vehicles. It increases the speed differential with all other road users.



This is of course true. Then we have to ask to what extent speed differential is a factor in motorised/non-motorised traffic incidents, and to what degree that is changed by a speed differential of say 50-15 against 40-15 in a 50 limit, compared with the extent to which speed differential is a factor in motorised/motorised incidents, and the degree to which that is changed by a speed differential of 40-50 as against 45-50 (allowing for speedo differences) in the same 50 limit, if you catch my drift.

My suspicion is that speed differential isn't really the issue with most motorised/non-motorised incidents; impatience and lack of observation are. And the difference in speed differential between 40/15 and 50/15 isn't that great - 25 as opposed to 35 - whereas the difference between a speed differential of 40/50 and one of 45/50 is quite significant - 5 as opposed to 10. Moreover, you cannot eliminate the motorised/non-motorised speed differential without imposing 10-15mph speed limits; the motorised/motorised speed differentials can be addressed by a general expectation of travelling at the speed limit when it is safe to do so. This doesn't, of course, mean that those speed limits shouldn't be lower in a number of places than they currently are, but the lower you set them, the harder they are to enforce, and if you don't, you're back to having big differentials between the people who observe them and those who don't.

Postboxer
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Re: Speeding...

Postby Postboxer » 21 Jan 2014, 3:09pm

Stopping distances and kinetic energy both drop though, thinking distance is shorter. So it's not the collision at 50 to 15 versus the one 40 to 15, there would be fewer collisions in theory for the above reasons and assuming the brakes were applied, the car going at 40 would be slowed more than the one doing 50 before the collision happens.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Speeding...

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Jan 2014, 3:42pm

Bicycler wrote:...with other motorised vehicles. It increases the speed differential with all other road users.

I passed my test (rather late) about 5 years ago. The driving instructor told me that I should be doing the speed limit of 20, 30, 40, 50 where conditions made it a safe speed. Though he did say that there was not necessarily any need to be at 60 or 70 on a National Speed Limit road.



Speed differential is the key.


"Turbo Rolf" is an excellent example of this

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mjr
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Re: Speeding...

Postby mjr » 21 Jan 2014, 3:45pm

karlt wrote:
Tonyf33 wrote:Going by the majority of driving instructor's I've heard the posted limit is a target though, learners are encouraged to drive at the posted speed otherwise they are admonished for it.


it's subtle. There is a requirement to make reasonable progress. This means that unless conditions dictate otherwise there's no reason to drive below the limit; it will be the speed everyone else is expecting motorised traffic to be moving at and therefore reduce speed differentials.

I think some examiners treat "make reasonable progress" as do the limit unless it's really unsafe. Part of failing one of my driving tests was driving south-east along this stretch http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.6 ... 2&layers=C at about 30mph rather than the posted 40 limit and allowing a gap to open in front of me because I could see that the vehicle two ahead was signalling to turn into Whiffler Road, other vehicles looked likely to take advantage of that to exit Whiffler Road, Galley Hill and the playing fields, there's a cycle route crosses the road there - and the limit dropped to 30mph by Galley Hill anyway. I had similar minor marks for being too cautious past a school(!!) and not continuing through an amber.

If I hadn't failed for another reason too, I think I would have appealed the result, but I don't know if it would have been upheld or whether the eco-efficient aspect of the test has changed examiner attitudes... and it rather sucks that this was years ago and I can drive for the forseeable without even so much as a basic check to see if my knowledge is up to date.
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