Daytime running lights

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby [XAP]Bob » 11 Feb 2014, 2:49pm

What on earth is wrong with DRLs? Anything which helps motorists not to run into each other can only be a benefit. They work in good visibility but come into their own when the light is poor and experience tells me you simply can't assume motorists will turn on their headlights in such circumstances. How often do you see cars driving on sidelights in rain and fog? Exactly, too many motorists simply don't think or adopt the view "I can see where I am going so I don't need better lights". An outlook which rather ignores the example of lighthouses, which have a great big light on them but don't have to see where they are going at all.


They are unnecessary - and their main effect is to stop people looking for hazards, and start them looking for lights. I don't have 50W to throw at "daytime" lights on a pedal cycle, so i shall soon be invisible amongst a sea of stupid and pointless lights.


I also find most DLRs dazzilng - I find our local traffic lights dazzling after dark (despite the council claiming that they drop the intensity, on some they do - but on most they are awful after dark)
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Mark1978
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby Mark1978 » 11 Feb 2014, 2:50pm

Ayesha wrote:"all new cars since February 2011 have had to have them".

I have a 2012 Ford Focus EcoBoost 1.0 litre.

It doesn't have daytime running lamps.


Is it not new designs of cars or new model releases, rather than all new cars?

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foxyrider
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby foxyrider » 11 Feb 2014, 3:01pm

How come we only have these 'problems' in the UK? Running lights - used in europe for decades without issue, Cycle specific traffic lights - ditto etc etc.

I've come to the conclusion that anything that we don't invent we are hard against, there will always be an 'angle' that no one else has had issue with.
Convention? what's that then?
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AlaninWales
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby AlaninWales » 11 Feb 2014, 3:11pm

foxyrider wrote:How come we only have these 'problems' in the UK? Running lights - used in europe for decades without issue, Cycle specific traffic lights - ditto etc etc.

I've come to the conclusion that anything that we don't invent we are hard against, there will always be an 'angle' that no one else has had issue with.

Really?
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661-Pete
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby 661-Pete » 11 Feb 2014, 5:10pm

BeeKeeper wrote:I despair sometimes of the thinking processes of other people. The title of this thread refers to daytime running lights (DLRs) which seems to infer we should be banning them.
The thinking processes of which people, do you mean? As far as I can see, most of the answers on this thread have been sensible and well-reasoned. And no-one's calling for a ban on DRLs (incidentally, it's "imply", not "infer", in the context of your post), merely putting in a plea against compulsion. Just like no-one's (seriously) calling for a 'ban' on h*lm*ts for cyclists...

I do concede that the petition referred to is poorly worded and contains some flawed logic.
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mark a.
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby mark a. » 11 Feb 2014, 5:24pm



I can't understand the graph. It's a mess both in the Polish and whatever attempt the translation is trying to do. Does anyone know? Lots of lines trending downwards, one going up.

The whole website is full of reactionary language and "scare quotes", so I can't take it seriously, sadly.

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mjr
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby mjr » 11 Feb 2014, 5:29pm

Mark1978 wrote:Is it not new designs of cars or new model releases, rather than all new cars?

No, not as far as I can tell. Instead of my car, I was driving someone else's 13-plate Alfa Romeo earlier today and manual deactivation of DRLs was still possible, although they don't make it easy: the deactivation is near the end of the menus and only accessible before ignition (same situation as on the 2009 models). It would be quite easy to drive off with DRLs on, not realise until you saw them reflected back at you and then be unable to switch them off without stopping, but they do not seem to be compulsary as of 2011's new model releases.
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DavidT
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby DavidT » 11 Feb 2014, 8:17pm

I have recently aquired a 2013 Citroen. De activating the daytime running lights was easy - via a couple of menu set up screens. I was pleased with that because like many of us on here - I don't like the things!

I believe it is now law that they are fitted to new cars, although deactivation is obviously allowed.

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jezer
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby jezer » 11 Feb 2014, 8:55pm

DavidT wrote:I have recently aquired a 2013 Citroen. De activating the daytime running lights was easy - via a couple of menu set up screens. I was pleased with that because like many of us on here - I don't like the things!

I believe it is now law that they are fitted to new cars, although deactivation is obviously allowed.


But for how long?
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BeeKeeper
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby BeeKeeper » 11 Feb 2014, 9:01pm

661-Pete wrote:
BeeKeeper wrote:I despair sometimes of the thinking processes of other people. The title of this thread refers to daytime running lights (DLRs) which seems to infer we should be banning them.
The thinking processes of which people, do you mean? As far as I can see, most of the answers on this thread have been sensible and well-reasoned. And no-one's calling for a ban on DRLs (incidentally, it's "imply", not "infer", in the context of your post), merely putting in a plea against compulsion. Just like no-one's (seriously) calling for a 'ban' on h*lm*ts for cyclists...

I do concede that the petition referred to is poorly worded and contains some flawed logic.


Ah, we are playing the pedantic game are we? I inferred from the thread title this was a thread against them, supported by the website link which was about bright vehicle lights. A title "Ban daytime running light" would have been more implicit but lacking such I could only infer.

And my point was very much about compulsion on the basis many motorists are pretty useless.

Helmets? Different subject entirely and of no relevance.

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661-Pete
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby 661-Pete » 11 Feb 2014, 11:05pm

You've evaded my question, beekeeper. I just hope you weren't having a pop at other forum members, as you seem to imply... :)
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
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BearOnWheels
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby BearOnWheels » 12 Feb 2014, 10:10am

I must admit to being baffled by this campaign. I saw DRLs in Canada long before they were introduced here and was impressed -in 'low light but not quite dark enough conditions to put dipped lights on' I thought they made driving much easier as cars were more visible. Given the general climate for at least 6 months of the year here I regard them as a positive contribution to road safety.

The campaign is getting confused over 1) DRLs and 2) more modern forms of headlight.
My wife's car uses DRLs - they are traditional halogen bulbs. So why the concern?

Now other forms of car light such as Xenon discharge and LEDS are a different story. From a driving point of view they are significantly better than halogens - I certainly appreciate them. They illuminate the road much better and farther than halogens and will rarely if ever need replacing - so much greener. (Not sure about how Xenon is gathered from the atmosphere or how much there is left…a question for someone!).

They do require proper car set up - so cars with these have to have auto level adjusting headlights - so that when the car is loaded the lights are not illuminating the oncoming drivers but the road. I think there are three far more serious challenges here that are ignored by this campaign.

First, retro fitting. There a number of cars I have seen that have had these modern lights retro-fitted without the auto-levelling. These are a danger as the lights do dazzle oncoming drivers as the lights are often ill-adjusted and the absence of suspension levelling means the light bounces up and down with the potholes :wink: :wink:
I understand these may be a breach of the Vehicle Construction and Use regulations but it is unclear and untested. I think this should be an automatic MOT failure.

Second, night vision. We do not teach drivers how to see correctly at night. The most effective part of the eye for night vision is if I recall correctly about 10 degrees off the centre of the eyeball so you never look where you are going but just to one side. So many people are dazzled at night because they are looking at lights - and that includes those of oncoming vehicles. This leads to odd driver behaviour. I have seen many drivers crawling at 20mph on a dark straight road (60 mph limit) near me because it is unlit - they are looking where their lights shine (not far) and not into the darkness beyond. Or at the lights of oncoming vehicles. When they reach the lit up 30 mph zone, the pedal goes to the floor and its 50 mph! LESSON: DON'T LOOK AT THE LIGHTS!

Third, age. Whether we like it or not our night vision deteriorates with age (from what level is a more difficult issue). Dazzle becomes more of a problem at night. Road signs can be confusing (hence the driver near rammed by the police this week for driving the wrong way on the A14).

So what? Nationally we need to improve the standard of eyesight tests at driving test level to cover night vision, teach night driving and vision techniques and repeat eye tests say every 10 years, every 5 years after the age of 50 (and yes that covers me).

As for the rest of the campaign its very poor with its use of evidence: the absence of consideration of cultural aspects of driving (France have DRLs to and I don't see cyclists being zapped into mush there, why use Poland - I understand drink driving is more acceptable there - so causal links to DRLs are suspect).
Won't be signing it. The situation (like real life) is much much more complex than the campaign suggests. :?: :!:

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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby Vorpal » 12 Feb 2014, 11:42am

This topic was discussed 3 years ago viewtopic.php?f=7&t=47293

Helmets may be irrelevant, but DRLs are as controversial, and the evidence as unclear. I noted on the previous thread that Austria had repealed their DRL law on the basis that the numbers of accidents with motorcycles went up markedly after the DRL law was implemented there.
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby kwackers » 12 Feb 2014, 11:59am

Vorpal wrote:This topic was discussed 3 years ago viewtopic.php?f=7&t=47293

Helmets may be irrelevant, but DRLs are as controversial, and the evidence as unclear. I noted on the previous thread that Austria had repealed their DRL law on the basis that the numbers of accidents with motorcycles went up markedly after the DRL law was implemented there.

I was reading an report that showed the risk to motorcyclists increased with brightness of DRL's, some relatively small value (200 milli whatsits) seemed to be the break even point.
No mention of bicycles, although motorcycles are probably more vulnerable to DRL laws due to the higher speeds involved.

Interestingly it also showed a number of flaws in the research data DRL laws were based on and also showed that there was evidence of 'novelty' and as they become more prevalent any benefits are eroded (whilst the negatives; i.e. motorcycle risk stayed the same).

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Daytime running lights

Postby [XAP]Bob » 12 Feb 2014, 12:25pm

kwackers wrote:
Vorpal wrote:This topic was discussed 3 years ago viewtopic.php?f=7&t=47293

Helmets may be irrelevant, but DRLs are as controversial, and the evidence as unclear. I noted on the previous thread that Austria had repealed their DRL law on the basis that the numbers of accidents with motorcycles went up markedly after the DRL law was implemented there.

I was reading an report that showed the risk to motorcyclists increased with brightness of DRL's, some relatively small value (200 milli whatsits) seemed to be the break even point.
No mention of bicycles, although motorcycles are probably more vulnerable to DRL laws due to the higher speeds involved.

Interestingly it also showed a number of flaws in the research data DRL laws were based on and also showed that there was evidence of 'novelty' and as they become more prevalent any benefits are eroded (whilst the negatives; i.e. motorcycle risk stayed the same).



So much like seat belts, ABS etc...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.