A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

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Spaeleoman
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A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by Spaeleoman »

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gaz
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by gaz »

I'm sorry there has been an incident and wish the rider a speedy recovery.

I won't be blaming the victim.
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Dean
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by Dean »

No doubt you've been shaken by the incident - anyone would be. Any idea how the rider is?

I couldn't agree less with the banning of black clothing, though. What's it supposed to achieve? It would only train drivers to look out for bright clothing (however you define that), making it easier for them to go faster.

It only adds to the fetishisation of cycling as an activity, that it should require special clothing and equipment. It is a normal activity, and people will make their own choices. Black is practical, after all, especially if you have to fettle mucky components.

Fundamentally, though, I disagree because it places all the safety responsibility onto the most vulnerable person in that situation, rather than on the person who brings the danger (I.e) the car onto the road.
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mjr
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by mjr »

Spaeleoman wrote:Why did this happen? Partly driver error in going too deep into the right hand long bend, and not allowing for light adaption. Cyclist error: why? Because he was wearing an ALL BLACK outfit, and had no rear light on. He and his mates were all wearing very low visibility clothing on a dangerous main road.

Which road was that then?
Please wear hi-vis tops and have a flashing rear light at all times.

No, I'm not going to carry a spare set of yellow-star clothes with me and anyway, in some brightly-lit scenarios, all-black is actually easier for people to see than bright colours (see http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/repor ... idents.htm ).

Steady-v-flashing rear lights are rather controversial and anyway, would it really have helped in the situation described? I suspect the driver wouldn't have seen such a weak light source: bright sunshine is over 20'000 lux and a bike light is well under 100.

So I will wear whatever I need to wear for my main activity and I will only expend energy on lighting when it is proper dark. I am not joining a lighting arms race because other people, wildlife and even inanimate objects need to be able to be near roads without risking destruction and I'm sick of people crashing cars into things. I will drive safely within the conditions and campaign for the same principle to be applied to others as part of http://www.roadjustice.org.uk

Actually, I don't have an all-black jacket - my usual ones are black with white or blue with white - but if it made a difference, wouldn't dark-coloured cars be banned too?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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rudge
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by rudge »

I haven't read any of the controversy on steady versus flashing lights. I use steady lights when it is dark, just as I would in a car.

I see lots of flashing lights, of course. I am very aware of them, perhaps more aware than of steady lights, but I experience the peculiar effect that I can't locate precisely the position of the flashing light. I know it is there, but I don't' know just where that is.

Does that make sense? It doesn't really convey the effect. Do others recognise what I am talking about?
Mark1978
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by Mark1978 »

Spaeleoman wrote:Recently I witnessed an incident were a guy was run down by a car on a main road in Somerset. It was a sunny day, the road is partly wooded on one side of the road. There were three cyclists riding in line; the problem was that they were now in deep shade, the car had just driven into the shade and was not visually adapted, he ran the rearwards bike down and badly injured the rider.

Why did this happen? Partly driver error in going too deep into the right hand long bend, and not allowing for light adaption. Cyclist error: why? Because he was wearing an ALL BLACK outfit, and had no rear light on. He and his mates were all wearing very low visibility clothing on a dangerous main road.

I have been a cyclist for decades and have never worn a black or low visibility top; always bright colours. I have never understood why cyclists are crazy enough to wear low visibility clothing; its senseless. They risk their own safety, and indeed the safety of motorists.

Please wear hi-vis tops and have a flashing rear light at all times.

I would like to see a campaign started to ban the sale of black cycling tops.

Note to the moderator: can this be made sticky in the right place?



It shouldn't be a sticky. It's the last thing which should be a sticky because it's yet more victim blaming and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Spaeleoman
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by Spaeleoman »

Well well, I an astounded by the response so far. I really thought it in the best interests of us cyclists to be responsible about our visibility. I dare say you who that argue against my commen sense approach also drive cars - have you never been in a situation where you are suddenly aware of a cyclist in black? The one that you could have mown down? Same applies to the idiots who walk at night on unlit roards with dark clothing and no torch.

You amaze me frankly.

Thsi is the last I have to say on this subject. I have no wish, need or desire to continue with a dialogue that goes nowhere.

Yours, A responsible cyclist who only goes out in hi-vis gear.
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Si
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by Si »

Problem with 'common sense' is that you are telling everyone to believe something because lots of others do rather than because it is proven to be right. You'd be much better off trying to convince people if you could produce some research that supports your case.

And, using the "she was wearing a short skirt so she was asking for it" argument really isn't going to cut it. If drivers are going to barrel along without a care in the world into places where there in no visibility then it doesn't matter what you wear. Personally, when I drive I do not drive into such places as I feel I have a responsibility not to kill other road users even if it means getting home for my dinner a few seconds late.
Tonyf33
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by Tonyf33 »

I don't understand how you can in anyway lay even the remotest partial blame on the cyclists here, they've done absolutely nothing wrong yet you are trying to place partial blame on them for having the temerity to cycle on the road minding their own business in ordinary coloured clothing.
How about all those solid dark coloured motor vehicles, does one blame their driver for not having it painted in hi vis/day glo colours when they are shunted/crashed into day or night, do we insist all pedestrians wear hi vis/reflectives during the day just in case they walk across a road that happens to be partly in shadow.
Answer..NO!

Shameful post IMO, though there are other apologists/victim blamers on this forum who will agree with you no doubt :roll:

Note, I won't bother starting a campaign to stop hi vis/reflectives being forced on the innocent..
Mike Sales
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by Mike Sales »

Are you familiar with Highway Code paragraph 126?

Stopping Distances. Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear.


Few motorists are. Are you posting on drivers' forums to inform them? I find advice to cyclists to wear hiviz is common, but I hardly ever hear mention of para. 126.

If drivers would take this advice they would kill fewer vulnerable road users.
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661-Pete
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by 661-Pete »

I, too, am not going to be lectured to, on what to wear. But I do let common sense prevail. I wear a jacket when weather dictates, and it does happen to be a yellow hi-viz one. There are conditions where it helps a bit.

Incidentally, the OP has a post count of 7, but only two come up on his/her profile: the two on this thread. Where are the other 5? I can guess....
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mjr
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by mjr »

Spaeleoman wrote:I dare say you who that argue against my commen sense approach also drive cars - have you never been in a situation where you are suddenly aware of a cyclist in black? The one that you could have mown down?

The trouble with common sense is that it's not common. Some people think that a white jacket and flashing red light can repel tons of out-of-control metal, for example.

The only cyclist in black that I remember that I could have mown down was when someone rode out from behind a wall, no lights, all in black, at night, straight across the pavement and into the road I was driving my car along. I'm pretty sure this must have been before 2007 because of where it was.

Other than that, I honestly don't remember coming even close to hitting a rider in black and there's enough of them about. I do remember one almost hitting my bike last year and I remember stopping my car very suddenly in Bristol early one morning a couple of years ago because I only just saw a rider who was already going round a mini-roundabout that I was about to enter. That bike was lit but their blinky lights had near-zero off-centre visibility. However, I still stopped and it was still my fault for not seeing them and it would have been my fault even if they had been unlit.
Same applies to the idiots who walk at night on unlit roards with dark clothing and no torch.

Yeah, they should also ring a plague bell, too, to help blind drivers :roll:

Basically, drivers should learn to drive.

I'm disappointed no-one's saying where this was. I tried a few searches on newsnow, Google News and Yahoo News and looked on Avon and Somerset Fire and Rescue, but didn't find it. Did it really happen?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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JimL
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by JimL »

I too wish the rider a good recovery and I won't be blaming the victim.

The OP should be ashamed.
ambodach
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by ambodach »

Last summer I got a pair of " reactolite" specs (or whatever the specsaver term is)which seemed to be a good idea at the time. Not so in fact a very bad idea. Wearing them for cycling I soon realised they were in fact very dangerous. If cycling in the sun with no shade from a hat peak I could see nothing in shaded areas. Even with the shade of a peak it was very dodgy and I have now stopped using them on sunny days which kind of defeats the object. Driving is even worse and I also stopped using them for driving. It is possible that the driver in the original post was wearing such glasses and just could not see anything in front. Should not have been wearing them in bright sunlight of course but hindsight is too late. Anyone contemplating such things should give it some serious thought.
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Si
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Re: A Plea for BRIGHT Clothing

Post by Si »

In defence of Spaeleoman, we all know that there are careless drivers out there who will flout the laws and care little for being caught ('cos for the most part they do get away with it). This being the case, following the "it don't matter if you are right when there is a car parked on your head" argument, one is tempted to try to do all one can to mitigate against others' mistakes. If some nutter takes a swing at you it will be totally his fault, yet you are still going to try and duck aren't you?

The issue is though how you word it. If you suggest that you do all that you can to protect yourself from others' wrong doing then fair enough, but if you suggest that someone is at fault for becoming the victim of others' wrong doing then it gets a bit tricky. I'm sure that Spaeleoman was only trying to help people, but had not thought through the ramifications of what he was saying and now has made a swift exit having been shot down in flames - hopefully he can see what the issue is here and now understands how to address the subject in future without insulting the victims of dangerous driving.

And the second issue is, of course, that he has presented no evidence that hi-viz would have made any difference. Remember, proper hi-viz has reflective panels in it...reflective panels only work when light is shined on them and he has admitted that there was no light shining on them in this case. Would wearing a yellow top have helpe3d? Perhaps, until that rider went past a field of ripe corn, at which point he might be wishing that he had worn black. An extreme example maybe, but we have to admit that background vary tremendously on even the shortest of rides. And then you get into the issues of selective viewing - hi-viz jackets being so popular that they are actually subconsciously ignored rather than standing out. And often road position can make much more of a difference than clothing.

Long and short of it: well intentioned post but ill thought through and expressed even worse. So hopefully we can explain the error he made rather than lambaste him for it (even though the number of people telling us it's all our fault that we are the victims of crap driving does tend to wear us down and try our patience somewhat).
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