Vehicle as a murder weapon

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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gaz
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby gaz » 3 Jun 2015, 7:27pm

Vehicle as a weapon against a pedestrian: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/maidstone/n ... -at-37975/
“You saw him there and you drove at him,” said the judge. “Your vehicle hit him and caused a very serious fracture to his leg and was sufficiently severe that it required nailing and that nailing will be in his leg permanently.


Two years jail.
It's got nothing to do with vorsprung durch technic you know ...

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gaz
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby gaz » 13 Jul 2015, 8:29pm

Murder charge, little additional detail: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/dartford/ne ... -is-40054/
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gaz
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby gaz » 6 Aug 2015, 11:46am

Vehicle used as a weapon against pedestrians: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news ... ing-41078/

Bryant, of St Albans Close, Gillingham, admitted unlawful wounding, assault causing actual bodily harm, dangerous driving and having no driving licence and insurance
...
“You used this car as a weapon. You had no licence and little driving experience" - Judge Philip Statman
It's got nothing to do with vorsprung durch technic you know ...

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gaz
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby gaz » 14 Dec 2015, 10:23pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-no ... e-35094901

Sam Spaven drove his Audi into 44-year-old Richard Pencott as he was riding along Blyth Road in Harworth, Nottinghamshire, on 24 June.

The 26-year-old, of Norfolk Road, Bircotes, admitted murder at Nottingham Crown Court earlier.

Spaven will be sentenced on Tuesday morning, when more details of the case will be heard.
It's got nothing to do with vorsprung durch technic you know ...

kwackers
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby kwackers » 15 Dec 2015, 8:22am

gaz wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35094901]

Anyone know the background behind this? (Google didn't throw up anything useful).

I'm curious because imo if you want to kill someone or end up accidentally killing them whilst 'teaching them a lesson' as far as I can see you're pretty much guaranteed to get away with it if the victim is a cyclist and you're in a vehicle.
In that respect cyclists have a number of disadvantages, they're vulnerable, societies mindset is that 'they're just accidents' and unlike pedestrians they're pretty much always on the road so it's pretty easy to do.

With that in mind you'd wonder how and why the murder charge was brought.

iviehoff
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby iviehoff » 15 Dec 2015, 9:16am

kwackers wrote:
gaz wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35094901]

Anyone know the background behind this? (Google didn't throw up anything useful).

In the sense of "didn't throw up anything useful", I can understand that you can reasonably think a report in The NeverLetTheTruthGetInTheWayOfAGoodStory isn't useful. But there is at least some possibility that it gives us a hint of what the others aren't saying.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... -bike.html

kwackers
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby kwackers » 15 Dec 2015, 9:30am

iviehoff wrote:In the sense of "didn't throw up anything useful", I can understand that you can reasonably think a report in The NeverLetTheTruthGetInTheWayOfAGoodStory isn't useful. But there is at least some possibility that it gives us a hint of what the others aren't saying.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... -bike.html

Cheers (my search didn't show that page).

I guess it's as I suspected...

iviehoff
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby iviehoff » 15 Dec 2015, 2:53pm

kwackers wrote:I'm curious because imo if you want to kill someone or end up accidentally killing them whilst 'teaching them a lesson' as far as I can see you're pretty much guaranteed to get away with it if the victim is a cyclist and you're in a vehicle.

If you are teaching someone a lesson, rather than it being something you can put down as totally accidental, and what you did ends up killing them, it's going to be manslaughter at least. And remember that even if it is seen as a "motoring accident" with a "careless" party, then causing death by careless driving is an offence with sentences rather similar to manslaughter.

If you are really interested, I suggest looking at the CPS's prosecution advice for these offences, and the sentencing council's sentencing guidelines. There has to be specific reason why it is manslaughter and not murder, and you don't get very far unless you decide which particular types of manslaughter you are interested in. Generally speaking deliberate actions resulting in death do attract a murder charge if it is reasonably foreseeable that the deliberate injuring act could well result in death. When it is not reasonably foreseeable that death would ensue, then Manslaughter by an Unlawful and Dangerous Act may apply. If the behaviour was deliberate, but not with the intent or reasonably foreseeable consequence of causing injury, then it could be Manslaughter by gross negligence, but that is usually applied to more general omissions and non-deliberate acts which give rise to negligence. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaugh ... nglish_law

iviehoff
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby iviehoff » 15 Dec 2015, 3:00pm

kwackers wrote:
iviehoff wrote:In the sense of "didn't throw up anything useful", I can understand that you can reasonably think a report in The NeverLetTheTruthGetInTheWayOfAGoodStory isn't useful. But there is at least some possibility that it gives us a hint of what the others aren't saying.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... -bike.html

Cheers (my search didn't show that page).
I guess it's as I suspected...

The BBC have now given the background.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-no ... e-35101463
A case about as plain as a pikestaff as could possibly be for using a vehicle as a murder weapon. The presence of explicit death-threats no doubt helped the prosecution.

kwackers
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby kwackers » 15 Dec 2015, 3:11pm

iviehoff wrote:If you are teaching someone a lesson, rather than it being something you can put down as totally accidental, and what you did ends up killing them, it's going to be manslaughter at least. And remember that even if it is seen as a "motoring accident" with a "careless" party, then causing death by careless driving is an offence with sentences rather similar to manslaughter.

My point was really about how difficult it would be to even prove manslaughter. If you had an altercation with a driver and he later caught up and deliberately ran you down then unless there was a witness you'd probably just be another cyclist who 'swerved' into the path of a car.

In this case I suspected there must be some background to allow them to make the murder charge but couldn't see what it was.

We can never know, but I do often wonder how many KSI's have some degree of malice and subsequently get dismissed as a mere 'accident'...

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661-Pete
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby 661-Pete » 15 Dec 2015, 4:19pm

Clearly this sad case has got very little to do with cycling, or with the risk cyclists undergo as a daily occurrence on our roads. But what it does underline is that nearly everyone in the country has a potential murder weapon at their disposal. A murder weapon made of steel, glass, etc., weighing 1-2 tons and capable of being propelled at its victim at speeds of 70mph or more.

I'm not against laws curbing the carrying of knives, etc., of course, but we have to bear this in mind - anyone could become a killer, knife/gun or no knife/gun. It's lucky that most of us are not murderers (I hope!) :shock:
Pete

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Mike Sales
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Dec 2015, 5:03pm

661-Pete wrote:Clearly this sad case has got very little to do with cycling, or with the risk cyclists undergo as a daily occurrence on our roads. But what it does underline is that nearly everyone in the country has a potential murder weapon at their disposal. A murder weapon made of steel, glass, etc., weighing 1-2 tons and capable of being propelled at its victim at speeds of 70mph or more.

I'm not against laws curbing the carrying of knives, etc., of course, but we have to bear this in mind - anyone could become a killer, knife/gun or no knife/gun. It's lucky that most of us are not murderers (I hope!) :shock:


The distinguishing thing about cars is not their possible use as a murder weapon, but the ease ( and frequency ) with which they can kill without the intention.

iviehoff
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby iviehoff » 16 Dec 2015, 9:04am

Mike Sales wrote:The distinguishing thing about cars is not their possible use as a murder weapon, but the ease ( and frequency ) with which they can kill without the intention.

Indeed. There are potential murder weapons within reach everywhere. Even our clothes are potential murder weapons. But it is very unusual for such things to cause a death to a third party accidentally through the incompetent usage by the possessor.

iviehoff
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Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby iviehoff » 16 Dec 2015, 9:18am

kwackers wrote:
iviehoff wrote:If you are teaching someone a lesson, rather than it being something you can put down as totally accidental, and what you did ends up killing them, it's going to be manslaughter at least. And remember that even if it is seen as a "motoring accident" with a "careless" party, then causing death by careless driving is an offence with sentences rather similar to manslaughter.

My point was really about how difficult it would be to even prove manslaughter. If you had an altercation with a driver and he later caught up and deliberately ran you down then unless there was a witness you'd probably just be another cyclist who 'swerved' into the path of a car.

That is clearly correct. Even with numerous witnesses, causing death by careless driving is often difficult to prove.

But one unusual feature here is that the collision took place on the footway and at sufficient speed the cyclist was propelled over a 10ft fence. Even if there wasn't the factor of the victim and driver being well-known to each other, and the written death threats, the circumstances alone make it very hard to avoid a charge of at least causing death by dangerous driving.