Vehicle as a murder weapon

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 977
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby Cugel » 23 Apr 2018, 11:31am

reohn2 wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:Advertising and the properties, handling of cars can certainly exacerbate regrettable tendencies in some drivers. Ones like you who have the insight to behave well are less common than need be.

I disagree that responsible drivers are 'less common' or are a minority group,IME the minority group are the idiot irresponsible drivers

Something does need to be changed, whether law enforcement, cars, or both.
We have all seen the ads which boast of "handling" which means a car that can go fast round corners, and the accompanying pictures illustrating a car on winding mountain roads.

Irresponsible driver behaviour is governed by what they can get away with,which is governed by a lack of effective policing,which is in turn restricted by bad government that operates on KSI statistics which only tells part of the story.
Government only spends what it can get away with in order to keep taxes low so it can get in office again and repeat the 4 or 5 year cycle.....

We tend to look for a single cause for the single effect we don't care for. "Bad drivers = maiming & injury", for example. Or "low policing = bad drivers".

Of course, there are many factors involved as "cause" and many varieties of egregious outcome. In addition, there is the context in which it all takes place. It's a mare's nest; definitely not a Gordian knot that can be cut through by one clever legislator wielding a single policy, or even a whole bill full.

In short, there is no single magic policy or action that will deal with the problem. Instead, there's a need to gain a deep understanding of a complex multi-faceted phenomenon involving many often obscure factors; and to derive & apply policies at many levels to improve things .... without inducing unintended consequences which are just as bad or worse than the problems we want to solve.

This is the human condition and one reason why utopia is nowhere to be found.

*****

But there is most hope in an analysis that finds causes that are fundamental - at the bottom of things. One cause for the problem of traffic "accidents" is bad drivers. Good luck with trying to fix all those! They're humans and difficult to manage. Another is the nature of the car, road design and law enforcement. A lot could be done to improve all of those.

It could be argued that the roads are fine as they are (bar the potholes) so no need for special cycling-pedestrian aspects .... if cars are made not-so-lethal and traffic police & courts become more draconian.....

Cugel

reohn2
Posts: 32264
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby reohn2 » 23 Apr 2018, 12:00pm

Cugel
I agree the problem is multifaceted and the whole problem can't be solved at all,but it can be minimised by various means some of those being technology,road design,etc.
But the main problem is ineffective policing and punishments especially for repeat offenders,we simply aren't hard enough on dangerous drivers and I dont like the readiness of the judiciary to step back from what is dangerous to careless driving for fear of not getting a conviction by juries
Effective policing isn't a panapoly but it would go a long way to solving the problem

EDIT
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 977
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby Cugel » 23 Apr 2018, 10:06pm

reohn2 wrote:Cugel
I agree the problem is multifaceted and the whole problem can't be solved at all,but it can be minimised by various means some of those being technology,road design,etc.
But the main problem is ineffective policing and punishments especially for repeat offenders,we simply aren't hard enough on dangerous drivers and I dont like the readiness of the judiciary to step back from what is dangerous to careless driving for fear of not getting a conviction by juries
Effective policing isn't a panapoly but it would go a long way to solving the problem

EDIT

A sea-change is needed in the attitude of the public at large to driving aggression and it's inevitable consequences. This is a highly unlikely scenario when the public at large are all addicted to the vroom-car. Humans get addicted. No one will ever stop that. Therefore it is the vroom-car we must deal with, as in ban 'em and replace with slow transport with safety devices catering to the safety of all, not just the contents of the car.

Only regulation and law to prevent the manufacture, promotion and sale of vroom-car will rid us of these addictive monstrosities. Alas, politicians are addicted to votes - the votes of the vroom-car addicted public at large. They scrap regulators and law enforcers; or draw their teeth, as this pleases the voting Toads.

We had best, then, reconcile ourselves to more death and destruction on the roads. My own approach is to hone that long-developed sixth sense we cyclists tend to acquire, indicating to our sensorium, from various car-twitches, that a vroom-car addict of the real-gone-loon ilk is entering our orbit. Also, I try to use the car as little as possible myself; and drive ever so carefully & with consideration. I don't want to be a murderer or GBHer, not even secretly.

Cugel

Bonefishblues
Posts: 5067
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby Bonefishblues » 23 Apr 2018, 11:22pm

reohn2 wrote:Cugel
I agree the problem is multifaceted and the whole problem can't be solved at all,but it can be minimised by various means some of those being technology,road design,etc.
But the main problem is ineffective policing and punishments especially for repeat offenders,we simply aren't hard enough on dangerous drivers and I dont like the readiness of the judiciary to step back from what is dangerous to careless driving for fear of not getting a conviction by juries
Effective policing isn't a panapoly but it would go a long way to solving the problem

EDIT

To be clear, it's not the Judiciary here, it's the public policy makers, unless I am misunderstanding the point you make?

reohn2
Posts: 32264
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby reohn2 » 24 Apr 2018, 9:27am

Bonefishblues wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Cugel
I agree the problem is multifaceted and the whole problem can't be solved at all,but it can be minimised by various means some of those being technology,road design,etc.
But the main problem is ineffective policing and punishments especially for repeat offenders,we simply aren't hard enough on dangerous drivers and I dont like the readiness of the judiciary to step back from what is dangerous to careless driving for fear of not getting a conviction by juries
Effective policing isn't a panapoly but it would go a long way to solving the problem

EDIT

To be clear, it's not the Judiciary here, it's the public policy makers, unless I am misunderstanding the point you make?

It's the whole way in which we as a society deal with traffic crime,which is far too leniently IMO
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 5067
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby Bonefishblues » 24 Apr 2018, 4:21pm

reohn2 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Cugel
I agree the problem is multifaceted and the whole problem can't be solved at all,but it can be minimised by various means some of those being technology,road design,etc.
But the main problem is ineffective policing and punishments especially for repeat offenders,we simply aren't hard enough on dangerous drivers and I dont like the readiness of the judiciary to step back from what is dangerous to careless driving for fear of not getting a conviction by juries
Effective policing isn't a panapoly but it would go a long way to solving the problem

EDIT

To be clear, it's not the Judiciary here, it's the public policy makers, unless I am misunderstanding the point you make?

It's the whole way in which we as a society deal with traffic crime,which is far too leniently IMO

My point was that the Judiciary doesn't have a view on conviction rates etc, hence the query.

reohn2
Posts: 32264
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby reohn2 » 24 Apr 2018, 4:30pm

Bonefishblues wrote:My point was that the Judiciary doesn't have a view on conviction rates etc, hence the query.

My bad,by judiciary I meant the whole legal kit and caboodle.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

thirdcrank
Posts: 27546
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby thirdcrank » 24 Apr 2018, 4:46pm

It's several years since I started this thread and I did so because the defendant had been convicted of murder, rather than manslaughter or causing death by dangerous / careless driving. The point used to be made by the late Gwyneth Dunwoody MP that a motor vehicle was the ideal murder weapon: may appear to be accidental and if not, still likely to result in conviction for a lesser offence.

Since then, gaz has linked to various reports of prosecutions for using a motor vehicle as a weapon and this triggered the latest resurrection of the thread. It does seem that at least in some cases, evidence has been secured and convictions have been achieved.

User avatar
gaz
Posts: 13228
Joined: 9 Mar 2007, 12:09pm
Location: Kent, car park of England

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby gaz » 7 Aug 2018, 9:36pm

A drunken thug told police his driving "wasn't the best" after purposely ramming his Range Rover into a man in a town centre car park.
...
Dunne later pleaded guilty to the charges of grievous bodily harm and drink driving and was sentenced to six years in prison at Canterbury Crown Court on July 20.

He was also banned from driving for 65 months.


http://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/new ... rk-187526/

MikeF
Posts: 3586
Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby MikeF » 7 Aug 2018, 11:41pm

gaz wrote:
A drunken thug told police his driving "wasn't the best" after purposely ramming his Range Rover into a man in a town centre car park.
...
Dunne later pleaded guilty to the charges of grievous bodily harm and drink driving and was sentenced to six years in prison at Canterbury Crown Court on July 20.

He was also banned from driving for 65 months.


http://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/new ... rk-187526/
:? Presumably after the prison sentence and why 65 months?
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

reohn2
Posts: 32264
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby reohn2 » 8 Aug 2018, 11:07am

gaz wrote:
A drunken thug told police his driving "wasn't the best" after purposely ramming his Range Rover into a man in a town centre car park.
...
Dunne later pleaded guilty to the charges of grievous bodily harm and drink driving and was sentenced to six years in prison at Canterbury Crown Court on July 20.

He was also banned from driving for 65 months.


http://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/new ... rk-187526/

Result!
No mention of his previous convictions,I'm thinking long,as in "yer arm",and I'm thinking he's a dealer in some commodity or other.......
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

thirdcrank
Posts: 27546
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Dec 2018, 8:57am

Man who killed friend in club crash 'rage' jailed for life
Mr Marshall died as Snape "used his car as a weapon" to target people he had been fighting with inside, police said.

Snape was found guilty of murder and attempted murder at Manchester Minshull Street Crown Court and jailed for life with a minimum of 24 years on Tuesday.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... r-46610269

reohn2
Posts: 32264
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby reohn2 » 19 Dec 2018, 10:08am

thirdcrank wrote:Man who killed friend in club crash 'rage' jailed for life
Mr Marshall died as Snape "used his car as a weapon" to target people he had been fighting with inside, police said.

Snape was found guilty of murder and attempted murder at Manchester Minshull Street Crown Court and jailed for life with a minimum of 24 years on Tuesday.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... r-46610269

At least Snape will be locked up for a very long time.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

thirdcrank
Posts: 27546
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Dec 2018, 10:22am

Here's a recent case I was going to post about then forgot. :oops:

Bournemouth nightclub crash: Driver cleared of murder bid
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-46519998

IMO, the point here is that the vid clearly shows the events, but a conviction depends on the defendant's intent being proved.

reohn2
Posts: 32264
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Vehicle as a murder weapon

Postby reohn2 » 19 Dec 2018, 10:39am

thirdcrank wrote:Here's a recent case I was going to post about then forgot. :oops:

Bournemouth nightclub crash: Driver cleared of murder bid
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-46519998

IMO, the point here is that the vid clearly shows the events, but a conviction depends on the defendant's intent being proved.

There isn't and transcript of his defence of his actions but TBH it looks pretty deliberate to me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.