Carrying a defibrillator

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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timdownieuk
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Carrying a defibrillator

Postby timdownieuk » 31 Aug 2014, 10:28pm

One of our local group members was unlucky enough to have a heart attack on our group ride today. Fortunately he didn't arrest and everything seems to be going okay for him (clot removed and old stent stretched) but afterwards it was semi-jokingly suggested that I should carry a defibrillator on our group rides. (They're desperate to slow me down on the hills). :lol:

Anyhow, it's not entirely a silly suggestion and smart defibrillators that do all the diagnosing and talk you through resuscitation can be had for under a £1000 pounds these days. They can weigh as little as 2kg so it wouldn't be impossible for one to be carried by the back marker on most rides.

Do any CTC groups already do this? Anyone wish that they had had a defibrillator with them out on a club ride? CTC rides do tend to attract more "mature" cyclists, particularly mid-week when the youngsters are at work.

Tim

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gaz
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby gaz » 31 Aug 2014, 11:01pm

I hope the rider makes a full and swift recovery.

Has anyone completed an incident report form?

If I were on a club run I'd like to think the leader may have a First Aid kit, I don't think I'd go so far as to say I'd expect them to have one or be trained to use it. As to carrying a defibrillator...
Last edited by gaz on 31 Aug 2014, 11:03pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Flinders
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby Flinders » 31 Aug 2014, 11:03pm

timdownieuk wrote:One of our local group members was unlucky enough to have a heart attack on our group ride today. Fortunately he didn't arrest and everything seems to be going okay for him (clot removed and old stent stretched) but afterwards it was semi-jokingly suggested that I should carry a defibrillator on our group rides. (They're desperate to slow me down on the hills). :lol:

Anyhow, it's not entirely a silly suggestion and smart defibrillators that do all the diagnosing and talk you through resuscitation can be had for under a £1000 pounds these days. They can weigh as little as 2kg so it wouldn't be impossible for one to be carried by the back marker on most rides.

Do any CTC groups already do this? Anyone wish that they had had a defibrillator with them out on a club ride? CTC rides do tend to attract more "mature" cyclists, particularly mid-week when the youngsters are at work.

Tim


Might be worth carrying a map with local defibrillators marked on it, if there are any in the area........but I'm not sure that they're much use if they aren't used PDQ.

TonyR
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby TonyR » 31 Aug 2014, 11:30pm

I think you'd be better ensuring everyone knew how to do CPR and was aware of the first signs of an impending heart attack than carrying a defibrillator.

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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby eileithyia » 1 Sep 2014, 7:55am

Defribillator only of any use in an arrest and then only for certain heart arythmias, the device talks through whether it is shockable or unshockable rhythm.

Better to know how to do effective CPR, 30:2ratio always more effective to do chest compressions adequate than ineffective breathing.. there is always some O2 in the blood and it is better to keep it circulating.

When I saw someone collapse at a cycle event, it was a cylinder of 02 I needed not a debrillator and would have been far more effective than a defribillator... I seriously do not think anyone would allow me to carry 02 around with me.. nor would I want the weight.

Best to be aware that most shopping centres / town centre have a debrillator and hope you not too much in the middle of nowhere... but there is only so much you can do.
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby Psamathe » 1 Sep 2014, 9:18am

eileithyia wrote:Best to be aware that most shopping centres / town centre have a debrillator and hope you not too much in the middle of nowhere... but there is only so much you can do.

Am I right in thinking that the emergency services can direct you to the nearest one ? 'cos whilst there might be one in the nearby shopping mall, things might have developed by the time you've been round all the shops asking all the weekend staff who have to check ...

Ian

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661-Pete
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby 661-Pete » 1 Sep 2014, 9:21am

At my workplace, the jobsworth of an H&S manager deemed that we had to have a defibrillator on the premises, notwithstanding that no-one among the workforce was believed to be at imminent risk of a cardiac arrest (or so I hope!). In his wisdom he decided that the best place to lodge this piece of kit was in the canteen, in one of the cupboards. This evinced many moans from the rest of us, since we were not allowed to put our cups etc. in the same cupboard, and there was a shortage of space already. Also I have no idea whether anyone was specifically trained on how or when to use the defib. There are first-aiders, who've done the standard training with St Johns Ambulance, would they have the know-how?

It seems to me, that taking eileithyia on the payroll with her expertise, would have been far more effective than any number of defibs! :)
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby Tonyf33 » 1 Sep 2014, 9:25am

Again, similarly to the carrying additional tags etc on a helmet in case you die at the side of the road in the wilderness, what are the chances of someone having a heart attack or stop breathing whilst on a cycle ride, less than those banging their heads and having life threatening injuries.
To even consider taking a defib around is just a nonsense IMO, sorry but it's all getting a bit stupid..why not have your own ambulance following the group rides just to make sure it'll save 'just one life'.. in fact, better yet, whilst you walk down to the shops or up the stairs to bed :roll:
Last edited by Tonyf33 on 1 Sep 2014, 9:26am, edited 1 time in total.

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timdownieuk
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby timdownieuk » 1 Sep 2014, 9:26am

eileithyia wrote:Defribillator only of any use in an arrest and then only for certain heart arythmias, the device talks through whether it is shockable or unshockable rhythm.

Better to know how to do effective CPR, 30:2ratio always more effective to do chest compressions adequate than ineffective breathing.. there is always some O2 in the blood and it is better to keep it circulating.

When I saw someone collapse at a cycle event, it was a cylinder of 02 I needed not a debrillator and would have been far more effective than a defribillator... I seriously do not think anyone would allow me to carry 02 around with me.. nor would I want the weight.

Best to be aware that most shopping centres / town centre have a debrillator and hope you not too much in the middle of nowhere... but there is only so much you can do.


Sorry but I disagree.

CPR and defibrillators do different jobs. CPR primarily supports the circulation whilst defibrillators primarily restore rhythm. There's a place for both and neither negates the usefulness of the other. It is wrong to say that it is "better" to know effective CPR. If our friend had gone into cardiac arrest, his chances of survival would have been greatly increased by the availability of a defibrillator even in the presence of effective CPR.

Now I know you can't really prepare for all eventualities, but given how the weight of defibrillators have dropped so much and how they've become automated, perhaps it's not too unreasonable to consider carrying one at physical group activities undertaken by not so young folk?

Just a thought.

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timdownieuk
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby timdownieuk » 1 Sep 2014, 9:28am

Psamathe wrote:
eileithyia wrote:Best to be aware that most shopping centres / town centre have a debrillator and hope you not too much in the middle of nowhere... but there is only so much you can do.

Am I right in thinking that the emergency services can direct you to the nearest one ? 'cos whilst there might be one in the nearby shopping mall, things might have developed by the time you've been round all the shops asking all the weekend staff who have to check ...

Ian


Not a lot a help during our average club rides out in the sticks! Might be useful for more urban folk.

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Si
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby Si » 1 Sep 2014, 9:33am

661-Pete wrote: Also I have no idea whether anyone was specifically trained on how or when to use the defib. There are first-aiders, who've done the standard training with St Johns Ambulance, would they have the know-how?



My 1st aid course: "1st aid in the workplace(sports)", was very defib heavy with the chap at one point intimating that if you've not got access to a defib then you've only got around a 5% chance of saving them. But there again he also said that the plastic that household electrical plug bodies are made from would conduct electricity!

anyhoo, with the U lock, first aid kit, a toolkit to fit most bikes, spares, and all my paperwork, etc etc there is no way I've got the room or the legs to tote another 2kg around!

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timdownieuk
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby timdownieuk » 1 Sep 2014, 9:34am

Tonyf33 wrote:Again, similarly to the carrying additional tags etc on a helmet in case you die at the side of the road in the wilderness, what are the chances of someone having a heart attack or stop breathing whilst on a cycle ride, less than those banging their heads and having life threatening injuries.
To even consider taking a defib around is just a nonsense IMO, sorry but it's all getting a bit stupid..why not have your own ambulance following the group rides just to make sure it'll save 'just one life'.. in fact, better yet, whilst you walk down to the shops or up the stairs to bed :roll:


It was once considered impossible to have a pocket communicator device that could connect you to emergency services almost anywhere in the country but we now take mobile phones for granted. Technology changes things and what was once unthinkable sometimes needs to be reconsidered.

I'm not seriously suggesting this is likely to take off in a big way yet but the day may come when NOT carrying a cheap lightweight defibrillator to an organised group activity (often frequented by old folk with heart disease) will be considered irresponsible.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby [XAP]Bob » 1 Sep 2014, 10:01am

I would suggest that we're not there yet in general though.

There may be specific groups who consider it, but in general they are still too expensive, and of such rare use that it's not a sane trade off.
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Neilo
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby Neilo » 1 Sep 2014, 10:09am

I am not a medic, but have been First aid trained and trained to use a defib. This is what I have learned.
The best chances of surviving a heart attack are early CPR, early Defib, early clot busting drugs and early to hospital.
CPR will not restart someones heart (except in Hollywood). It will give you time to get a defib. A defib will only work if it senses the right conditions, namely that the heart is fibrilating, The electrical impulses in the heart go all screwy and the heart muscle is twitching, rather than beating. The defib defibrulates the heart, meaning that it sends an electric shock to stop the heart twitching, then it can beat properly again.
If the heart is stopped and it is not fibrilating, the machine will not do anything, the person is dead.

Whether to carry one is another matter, I guess you would have to weigh up the probabilities of it happening.
A ride with a fit and health group, with no known medical problems, probably not. A ride with the heart attack survivors cycling club, probably.

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gaz
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Re: Carrying a defibrillator

Postby gaz » 1 Sep 2014, 10:18am

I think Swallow may have stumbled across the answer to proper medical support on club runs in this thread :wink: .
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