Latest speeding excuse..

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AlaninWales
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby AlaninWales » 18 Sep 2014, 2:10pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
Bicycler wrote:Not necessarily habitual but at the very least occasional and most likely regular or habitual. I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that he could have only ever exceeded the limit on three occasions. The odds would be so unbelievably small as to be incredible. Would anybody care to estimate the odds of a single incident of speeding being detected and the driver issued with points rather than just being advised of their speed?

In any case the driver knew the law and had been caught on two previous occasions for the same offence. Would we view any person caught three times for any other criminal offence as "unlucky"?

It only requires a single incident of speeding to endanger others so it should only require a single incident to be punished. Can we imagine the excuses of just being unlucky to get caught or needing a pee working in the case of a workplace safety violation?

You may well be right, but Courts deal in evidence, not supposition.

In a criminal case they deal in evidence that something is ‘beyond reasonable doubt’. It would be unreasonable to doubt that someone caught speeding three times has broken the speed limit more than three times, because the chances of that happening are unreasonably small.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Sep 2014, 2:33pm

AlaninWales wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
Bicycler wrote:Not necessarily habitual but at the very least occasional and most likely regular or habitual. I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that he could have only ever exceeded the limit on three occasions. The odds would be so unbelievably small as to be incredible. Would anybody care to estimate the odds of a single incident of speeding being detected and the driver issued with points rather than just being advised of their speed?

In any case the driver knew the law and had been caught on two previous occasions for the same offence. Would we view any person caught three times for any other criminal offence as "unlucky"?

It only requires a single incident of speeding to endanger others so it should only require a single incident to be punished. Can we imagine the excuses of just being unlucky to get caught or needing a pee working in the case of a workplace safety violation?

You may well be right, but Courts deal in evidence, not supposition.

In a criminal case they deal in evidence that something is ‘beyond reasonable doubt’. It would be unreasonable to doubt that someone caught speeding three times has broken the speed limit more than three times, because the chances of that happening are unreasonably small.

Fair enough, let's take it into the Magistrate's Court then.

Magistrate
"The Defendent has now been caught three times. He therefore is a serial speeder and has, beyond reasonable doubt, broken the law on other occasions, albeit he was undetected. I will therefore dismiss his plea in mitigation on that basis."

I'm deeply uncomfortable with that, which is where/why I responded to the previous poster, who suggested that this should apply.

Flinders
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009, 6:47pm

Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby Flinders » 18 Sep 2014, 2:36pm

Previous convictions can't be taken into account when deciding if someone is guilty. But they are taken into account when sentencing. That seems fair enough to me, on the whole.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Sep 2014, 2:41pm

Flinders wrote:Previous convictions can't be taken into account when deciding if someone is guilty. But they are taken into account when sentencing. That seems fair enough to me, on the whole.

...but to further extrapolate previous convictions to assume that more (undetected) offences have taken place, which is where I came in - is that OK?

Bicycler
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby Bicycler » 18 Sep 2014, 2:42pm

It has to undermine the claim though doesn't it? "I was only doing this because of such and such", despite evidence that you have done the same thing on two previous occasions when such and such didn't apply. Is having been convicted of doing the same thing on multiple occasions in the past an irrelevant consideration for the magistrate when dealing with other offences?

beardy
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby beardy » 18 Sep 2014, 3:29pm

Meanwhile those of us who do not habitually speed but may have occasionally missed a signpost or got distracted or forgotten what the limit actually was while behind a slow moving vehicle etc etc. have managed to keep an absolutely clean licence for twenty five years, despite being a professional high mileage driver for many of those years.

He didnt get caught speeding because he was unlucky, he got caught speeding because he was speeding. It isnt that complicated, the more you speed the more you are likely to get caught.
They give you four chance in three years, how many chances to people have to be given before you accept they cant do the driving under the limit thing.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Sep 2014, 4:42pm

Bicycler wrote:It has to undermine the claim though doesn't it? "I was only doing this because of such and such", despite evidence that you have done the same thing on two previous occasions when such and such didn't apply. Is having been convicted of doing the same thing on multiple occasions in the past an irrelevant consideration for the magistrate when dealing with other offences?

It's a matter of record that he had been detected speeding 3 times. That's what the Court had in front of it and should give due weight to.

I raised the point because the earlier poster went further than that, stating that this evidenced systemic speeding, and on that latter basis his plea of mitigation should have been rejected.

I think that's a step too far.

For all we know Owens might have been a reformed character, driving like Miss Daisy's Driver ever since his second endorsement, until the unfortunate day when his medication failed to control his condition on the M4, and which he evidenced in Court as mitigation.

You cannot give weight to that which is supposition.

That is the particular and specific point I'm making. For the record, lest anyone thinks otherwise I am not supporting speeding in any way, shape or form.

rjb
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby rjb » 18 Sep 2014, 6:17pm

Didn't Alex Ferguson get off a similar offence with the help of Mr. Loophole. Ah here it is - he was driving down the hard shoulder to use the loo. http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming ... ty-6594468
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Sep 2014, 6:59pm

Bicycler wrote:Nothing new here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/465718.stm

And here :wink:

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Mick F
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby Mick F » 18 Sep 2014, 7:17pm

We were in Plymouth yesterday evening, and drove home soon after 10pm.
I always keep below the speed limit, even though it antagonises the vehicle behind me. It's their problem, not mine.

Last evening, I came out of town through the 30 limit onto the A38 and accelerated to 70. The cars behind wanted to, and succeeded to overtake doing maybe 90 :shock: . Beyond the suspension bridge heading north up the A388 it's a 40 limit, then a 30, then a 60, before another 30, a 60, then a 30 again through St Mellion.

Guess what?
A car with the bright lights was right on my tail through the 40 and 30, but as I sped off at 60 I left him way behind!
Then at the next 30 through St Mellion he caught me up and hung on my tail again. I expected him to come in through the back window! By the time we were out into the wilds of Cornwall again, I'd left him behind.

Why do people do this?
Mick F. Cornwall

Bonefishblues
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Sep 2014, 7:23pm

Not a clue - the 40mph everywhere, incl. 30mph zones crew - it's as if they wake up and decide "today I shall mainly be driving at 40mph"

It shows consummate lack of awareness, worryingly so IMHO.

reohn2
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby reohn2 » 18 Sep 2014, 8:54pm

So you have a medical condition that means you pass urine quite a bit more than normal,you also have to drive quite a bit as part as of your job.

When I was a teenager I broke the neck of my femur and had to spend 10 weeks in a hospital bed,for the necessaries I had to use a bottle and a bed pan,which was a bit embarrassing for a young kid.
But I got used to it.
So if a young kid can do it in bed without spilling a drop...............



Of course you'd need to stop the car first and perhaps use a towel to cover the naughty bits :roll:
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Latest speeding excuse..

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 18 Sep 2014, 9:14pm

Call me old fashioned, but back in my day if you had a medical condition that meant you weren't in proper control of the car you would have your licence taken away.
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