Clipping and running

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
MikeF
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby MikeF » 18 Oct 2014, 8:51am

[XAP]Bob wrote:
MikeF wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
EDIT: Just read the description on the video:
"The guy in the silver and blue Pinarello cut-off in front of a rider and took his front wheel out. He saw the accident he caused and sped away."
We don't know that from the video. That's just an opinion.


It was the description, so made by the video uploader. Now it's possible that someone else has reuploaded the video, but it'd more likely that the person posting is the camera man, and therefore has the following minute as well as seeing the guy cycle off... And he has clearly had interest in cycling videos before.

So it's a little more than a simple opinion from the video - the person making it is likely to have had access to much more information than we do.
But we haven't any video evidence of that which is the crucial point. Therefore we cannot judge. Supposing the cyclist with the video camera caused the problem, and note the first cyclist appears to brake before he swerves to overtake, then he might add a comment like that to exonerate himself, and post a video to "prove" his point.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby [XAP]Bob » 18 Oct 2014, 9:14am

We certainly see him stop pedalling (probably looking back) and then start again.


As for team pace lines - this doesn't look like a club outing, more likely an audax/sportive style affair. You cannot assume small group conventions when you aren't in that group - you have to revert to general traffic conventions: make sure your manoeuvre is safe.


Just looked up the fly6 camera - 15 minute files, so off that we have a boring 40 seconds in a <60 second clip.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Edwards
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby Edwards » 18 Oct 2014, 10:52am

[XAP]Bob wrote:As for team pace lines - this doesn't look like a club outing, more likely an audax/sportive style affair. You cannot assume small group conventions when you aren't in that group - you have to revert to general traffic conventions: make sure your manoeuvre is safe.


I was careful not to mention race or pace lines. However nearly all the riders were behaving as though on a club run. Not a commute so the inexperience of riding in those conditions show, the best example of this is the rider with the camera on his bike. He went alongside then braked that is a no no he should have slowed sooner.

Does not matter he got what he wanted, good video footage and his moment of fame.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby [XAP]Bob » 18 Oct 2014, 11:52am

Edwards wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:As for team pace lines - this doesn't look like a club outing, more likely an audax/sportive style affair. You cannot assume small group conventions when you aren't in that group - you have to revert to general traffic conventions: make sure your manoeuvre is safe.


I was careful not to mention race or pace lines. However nearly all the riders were behaving as though on a club run. Not a commute so the inexperience of riding in those conditions show, the best example of this is the rider with the camera on his bike. He went alongside then braked that is a no no he should have slowed sooner.

Does not matter he got what he wanted, good video footage and his moment of fame.

And you thought *I* was jumping to conclusions - what evidence do you have that he braked, or the wanted a crash.

You might not have mentioned pace lines, but you were referring to the protocols you are familiar with when dealing with them.

This doesn't look lile an event where that familiarity can be assumed - and therefore you need to ensure that your way is clear. The forward cyclist fails to do so (correctly at any rate).
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Edwards
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby Edwards » 18 Oct 2014, 12:23pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:And you thought *I* was jumping to conclusions - what evidence do you have that he braked,


Reduction in speed when just in front of the rider on his right.

Unfortunately this is exactly where the protocols of group riding are very important. As in do not tell somebody they are clear when you know they can not look behind to check.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby [XAP]Bob » 18 Oct 2014, 12:54pm

Edwards wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:And you thought *I* was jumping to conclusions - what evidence do you have that he braked,


Reduction in speed when just in front of the rider on his right.

Unfortunately this is exactly where the protocols of group riding are very important. As in do not tell somebody they are clear when you know they can not look behind to check.


He didn't say "you are clear". By "go ahead" I would understand that I should be looking for that gap rather than going behind that rider.

I don't see anything that would indicate braking by the camera bike at all.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

MikeF
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby MikeF » 21 Oct 2014, 2:19pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:I don't see anything that would indicate braking by the camera bike at all.
There's too much of what we don't see. Therefore nothing is certain and who's to blame (if anyone) is inconclusive.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

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elPedro666
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby elPedro666 » 15 Jan 2015, 11:31pm

As someone very inexperienced at riding in a group, I can see this in a slightly different light.

Based on the kit and physical condition and riding styles of the two riders, I'm going to hazard that it's likely the rider pulling out is much less experienced than the competent-looking guy behind. Difficult to be sure, but it certainly looks that way to me.

So as the inexperienced rider spots something that he quite quickly needs to avoid (the erratic camera bike perhaps?), he puts out a warning 'don't block me I need space' arm, looks back and sees the experienced guy slow down, make space and call him out.

Now it may not be totally correct, but as the new guy in the group, I'm pretty damn swift to pay attention when someone experienced, who I look up to, calls out to me. So I'll take that 'go ahead' to mean exactly that and avoid whatever it is that's spooked me.

I reckon the guy behind misjudged his backing off, maybe because the speeds ahead of him changed (camera bike again?).

If we're playing by the rules of the road, then the onus is on the overtaker, which is akin to the 'no overlap without announcing it' guideline mentioned above. The guy behind began an overtaking manoeuvre which it wasn't safe to complete.

All of that said, I'm just seeing it a little differently and I really wouldn't want to blame anyone - it's just a shitty accident that could have been avoided if everyone was playing by the same rules. If the guy didn't stop though, he's a ****, end of.

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elPedro666
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby elPedro666 » 15 Jan 2015, 11:35pm

Gah, speaking of group etiquette, I'm also quite new to this forum (and TapaTalk); this popped up at the top of my feed so I assumed it to be current, not three months passed apologies for the resurrection.

Postboxer
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby Postboxer » 16 Jan 2015, 12:56am

I'm amazed it's been nearly three months, how time flies.

Flinders
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby Flinders » 16 Jan 2015, 11:46am

This thread has rather reinforced my general disinclination to do any group rides. :(
As a solo rider, I don't have all this stuff to worry about...I doubt I'd ever master all the protocols there seem to be.
In fact, I get edgy if I end up riding with just one other person. :oops: I like a bit of 'sea room'.

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mjr
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby mjr » 16 Jan 2015, 12:17pm

Flinders wrote:This thread has rather reinforced my general disinclination to do any group rides. :(
As a solo rider, I don't have all this stuff to worry about...I doubt I'd ever master all the protocols there seem to be.
In fact, I get edgy if I end up riding with just one other person. :oops: I like a bit of 'sea room'.

Not all groups have all this stuff to worry about. I think the only rules my usual easy-riding group has is to follow the highway code broadly (turn signals, don't crash into each other and so on). Beyond that, it's considered helpful to signal stops and potholes and call out when a car is about to overtake, but not essential. Much beyond that won't be widely understood. Hold your position if you like. Overtake if you like (but if you don't know the route, it's probably a good idea to wait for the map-reader before long). Do what you like. We're more of a rambling pootleton than a racing peloton or paceline, going to look around rather than going fast. I think it's more fun :-)
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Mark1978
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby Mark1978 » 16 Jan 2015, 1:15pm

It has it's place. I've cycled with the club a few times and yeah it can be an issue especially when I'm putting in more effort than I would like to and having to ease off at times when I'd like to push on. However it's quite good cycling with one other person, you have the advantage of being able to share the wind but the group dynamic of don't stop for anything, group is more important than individual riders doesn't apply as you're only worrying about yourself and the other person. So if you want to stop for a rest or go slower, you do.

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Re: Clipping and running

Postby andy65 » 16 Jan 2015, 8:15pm

Riding safely in a group requires discipline and an understanding of the 'rules'. Neither rider is riding in a discipline way in my opinion. Though the guy in front is the worst.

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elPedro666
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Re: Clipping and running

Postby elPedro666 » 16 Jan 2015, 8:22pm

mjr
Pootleton is without doubt my favourite new word, it's what we do a lot of the time too and I never even knew...