Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

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DGG1941
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Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby DGG1941 » 26 Oct 2014, 6:43pm

Living in the Surrey hills I see a large number of road cyclists at all times of the week and am constantly amazed at how many are dressed from helmet to pedal in BLACK. Do they have a death wish? Or no washing facilities at home? Or it cool and fashionable to look this way?

OK I may be exaggerating about the number that are so dressed but I wonder what we have to do to convince those that are to make themselves visible. Have they never driven a car with the sun in their eyes and not been able to see to clearly what was on the road under the shaded trees? Add a wet road (not difficult at this time of year) and the driver is relying on instinct!

Perhaps we should ask how they would feel if their partner/parent/sibling collided with a cyclist whilst driving because they couldn't see them.

OK, rant over. But I'd be curious to understand why some cyclist dress this way and whether I'm a lone voice of concern on their behalf.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby [XAP]Bob » 26 Oct 2014, 6:47pm

Why do so many motorists drive such that they can't stop in the distance they can see to be clear?

Amazingly men in business suits are visible, as are taxi's, so are cyclists in black.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby Bonefishblues » 26 Oct 2014, 6:48pm

Can't say I've noticed, myself.


:wink:

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mjr
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby mjr » 26 Oct 2014, 7:15pm

Usual replies:

If they're not visible, how did you see them?

What about all those black cars? Those deathtraps don't even have pedal or wheel reflectors, or reflective sidewalls.

Wearing black (or dark blue as I often do) doesn't matter much. I've got good lights and reflectors.

Drivers in my family obey Highway code rule 125. Why don't yours?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Cunobelin
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby Cunobelin » 26 Oct 2014, 7:44pm

DGG1941 wrote:Living in the Surrey hills I see a large number of road cyclists at all times of the week and am constantly amazed at how many are dressed from helmet to pedal in BLACK. Do they have a death wish? Or no washing facilities at home? Or it cool and fashionable to look this way?

OK I may be exaggerating about the number that are so dressed but I wonder what we have to do to convince those that are to make themselves visible. Have they never driven a car with the sun in their eyes and not been able to see to clearly what was on the road under the shaded trees? Add a wet road (not difficult at this time of year) and the driver is relying on instinct!

Perhaps we should ask how they would feel if their partner/parent/sibling collided with a cyclist whilst driving because they couldn't see them.

OK, rant over. But I'd be curious to understand why some cyclist dress this way and whether I'm a lone voice of concern on their behalf.


Sorry but let's change this slightly...


Shopping in the Supermarket I see a large number of people walking in the car park all times of the week and am constantly amazed at how many are dressed in BLACK. Do they have a death wish? Or no washing facilities at home? Or it cool and fashionable to look this way?

OK I may be exaggerating about the number that are so dressed but I wonder what we have to do to convince those that are to make themselves visible. Have they never driven a car with the sun in their eyes and not been able to see to clearly what was in the car park? Add a wet car park surface (not difficult at this time of year) and the driver is relying on instinct!

Perhaps we should ask how they would feel if their partner/parent/sibling collided with a shopper whilst driving because they couldn't see them.

OK, rant over. But I'd be curious to understand why some shoppers dress this way and whether I'm a lone voice of concern on their behalf.

Flinders
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby Flinders » 26 Oct 2014, 8:24pm

My car is black. Ought I to have it resprayed in florescent yellow so cyclists don't run into it?

Mark1978
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby Mark1978 » 26 Oct 2014, 8:29pm

Any driver driving on instinct (what is that anyway something out of Star Wars?!) needs to have their licence revoked for their own good.

Bicycler
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby Bicycler » 26 Oct 2014, 8:39pm

DGG1941 wrote: Have they never driven a car with the sun in their eyes and not been able to see to clearly what was on the road under the shaded trees? Add a wet road (not difficult at this time of year) and the driver is relying on instinct!

I don't mean to get too personal but if this describes how you think it is acceptable to drive then I suggest you look somewhat closer to home for ways of preventing potential cyclist casualties.

Sagwagon
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby Sagwagon » 26 Oct 2014, 8:40pm

Because we`ve bred a generation of cyclists who misguidedly believe that it is the motorists sole responsibility for the welfare of the cyclist not a joint responsibility which it is. Fashion or not, it always better to wear brighter colours, common sense really but then again that really is going out of the window, just look how many half wits venture out on the public road with headphones on.

Bicycler
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby Bicycler » 26 Oct 2014, 9:01pm

Sagwagon wrote:Because we`ve bred a generation of cyclists who misguidedly believe that it is the motorists sole responsibility for the welfare of the cyclist not a joint responsibility which it is. Fashion or not, it always better to wear brighter colours, common sense really but then again that really is going out of the window, just look how many half wits venture out on the public road with headphones on.

We don't dispute the need to cycle responsibly. What we do object to is any attempt to pretend that cyclists are in some way invisible in broad daylight and blame them for acts of poor driving. If your car is rear ended or hit whilst being overtaken the driver behind or misjudging the overtake is assumed to be to blame unless there is some exceptional reason why it is otherwise. If you are riding a bicycle every excuse in the book is tried to pin some or all of the responsibility on the cyclist ("sun glare", hi-vis, wobbling, not using the cycle path, not wearing a helmet :roll: ).

As for the doctrine of equal responsibility, it sounds fair until you think about it in any depth. A great lie perpetuated by the motor lobby since people first started being killed by drivers in numbers a century ago when they shamelessly blamed pedestrians for not ensuring they didn't get run over. The child and the lorry driver simply do not have equal responsibility for each other's safety. One is creating the danger, the other one endangered. I drive believing that I am responsible for the danger I present to others. People don't die because they wore black whilst walking or cycling on a sunny day, they die because they were hit by a tonne or more of metal travelling at high speed being driven by someone who was unwilling to drive to the conditions and be able to stop within the distance they could see to be clear. Equal responsibility my foot!
Last edited by Bicycler on 26 Oct 2014, 10:51pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby Cunobelin » 26 Oct 2014, 9:28pm

Sagwagon wrote:Because we`ve bred a generation of cyclists who misguidedly believe that it is the motorists sole responsibility for the welfare of the cyclist not a joint responsibility which it is. Fashion or not, it always better to wear brighter colours, common sense really but then again that really is going out of the window, just look how many half wits venture out on the public road with headphones on.


Again superstition and hearsay as oposed to evidence

Sagwagon wrote:Because we`ve bred a generation of cyclists who misguidedly believe that it is the motorists sole responsibility for the welfare of the cyclist not a joint responsibility which it is. Fashion or not, it always better to wear brighter colours, common sense really but then again that really is going out of the window


Look back to teh previous post, you need to explain why a person is silly to ride a cycle without bright clothing, but not silly to use a car park in dark clothing

just look how many half wits venture out on the public road with headphones on.


Are drivers with their windows closed half wits?

Research shows that the difference in hearing between a driver with their windows open and closed is the same as a cyclist without heaphones and headphones on a mediunm volume

Again - why is one road user silly and childishly called names, yet the other road user is perfectly within their rights to compromise their hearing

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Cunobelin
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby Cunobelin » 26 Oct 2014, 9:41pm

Sadly things have not changed since the start of the motor vehicle's takeover.

"Murder most foul" was written in 1947 and little has changed

In 1934 the then Minister of Transport stated in Parliament

“It is true that 7000 people are killed in motor accidents, but it is not always going on like that. People are getting used to the new conditions… No doubt many of the old Members of the House will recollect the number of chickens we killed in the old days. We used to come back with the radiator stuffed with feathers. It was the same with dogs. Dogs get out of the way of motor cars nowadays and you never kill one. There is education even in the lower animals. These things will right themselves.”


Chillingly there are still all too many drivers who have the same opinion some 70 years later

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ArMoRothair
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby ArMoRothair » 26 Oct 2014, 10:13pm

DGG1941 wrote:Living in the Surrey hills


There must be some anti-cycling hallucinogen in Surrey's water.

Postboxer
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby Postboxer » 26 Oct 2014, 10:22pm

Shall we hold a 'national cycle into black cars day'?

stewartpratt
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Re: Visibility: why are do so many riders in black

Postby stewartpratt » 26 Oct 2014, 10:27pm

DGG1941 wrote:Have they never driven a car with the sun in their eyes and not been able to see to clearly what was on the road under the shaded trees? Add a wet road (not difficult at this time of year) and the driver is relying on instinct!


"Relying on instinct" is not anything like safe driving, of course. The driving test does not require Jedi mind skills, it requires adaptation to conditions. Like slowing down in dappled light and on wet roads. It seems a little odd that you might criticise people for their choice of outfit but not for driving in a patently unsafe manner.

Sadly, the law doesn't give two hoots about that, but still... The point is that even when we take a look at the real world rather than optimistically hoping people might not be homicidally awful at driving, we find that your dress actually makes no demonstrable difference in terms of outcomes. Take a look at some of the research mentioned on this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=91359

DGG1941 wrote:Perhaps we should ask how they would feel if their partner/parent/sibling collided with a cyclist whilst driving because they couldn't see them.


If it was my partner/parent/sibling I'd be "somewhat disappointed" that they'd clearly been driving too fast for their own illumination of the road or not looking adequately, which is what "couldn't see them" is the victim-blamer's euphemism for.


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