Female Cyclist Death In North London

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jezer
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby jezer » 20 Jan 2015, 7:04pm

Don't expect any action from politicians in the next few months. They are all too busy trying to ensure their well paid futures after May :cry:
Power to the pedals

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661-Pete
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby 661-Pete » 20 Jan 2015, 7:49pm

Few posts so far have expressed condolences and sympathy to the friends and family of the victim. In fact I've posted twice without doing so :oops: . Indeed, whoever was to blame, this is another terrible tragedy, and heartfelt sympathy to the bereaved. We have had too many deaths already on our roads this year. Each one is one too many. :cry:
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MartinC
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby MartinC » 21 Jan 2015, 1:30pm

661-Pete wrote:Few posts so far have expressed condolences and sympathy to the friends and family of the victim. In fact I've posted twice without doing so :oops: . Indeed, whoever was to blame, this is another terrible tragedy, and heartfelt sympathy to the bereaved. We have had too many deaths already on our roads this year. Each one is one too many. :cry:


+1

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hondated
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby hondated » 21 Jan 2015, 2:58pm

kwackers wrote:
hondated wrote:I should add here that by saying this I am in no way assuming that this is what this young lady did

I'd say your entire rant is based around cyclists being at fault and the only reason your disclaimer exists is because it'd be bad form to blame this particular cyclist at this time. :roll:


You can think what you like kwackers and as far as I am concerned without looking at all of the evidence no one has any right whatsoever to pontificate over who was to blame for this tragic accident. What I do know however is that two families will tonight be struggling to come to terms with what has taken place and I speak as someone who has some understanding of just how horrific a sudden death, particularly of a young person in a family is. Everyone involved in this tragic accident will never be the same again.
My heart goes out to all those concerned.

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hondated
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby hondated » 21 Jan 2015, 3:10pm

Flinders wrote:
kwackers wrote:
hondated wrote:I should add here that by saying this I am in no way assuming that this is what this young lady did

I'd say your entire rant is based around cyclists being at fault and the only reason your disclaimer exists is because it'd be bad form to blame this particular cyclist at this time. :roll:


Exactly.
If we're talking about what generally happens, it might be a better idea to tell truck drivers not to overtake cyclists near junctions.
As a driver, even though I only drive a car, I don't overtake cyclists close to junctions. As a cyclist I would not undertake a truck near a junction. Trucks have overtaken me near junctions when I've been cycling.

Exactly whats that all about.
Given you have never driven a HGV vehicle you have no comprehension of just how difficult it can be to get one around a corner. Those that have will tell you that on most occasions whilst they are signalling left they may actually have to steer the vehicle right to get the vehicle around the corner.
In fact sometimes its easier to get an Artic around the corner than it is a 6 or 8 wheeler. Your probably have to Goggle that description to understand what I mean.
This point reinforces my idea of the need for a certain level of competence prior to riding a bike on the road and also perhaps introduce a cycling element either theoretically or practically in the HGV test.

stringerbikebell
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby stringerbikebell » 21 Jan 2015, 3:20pm

For the record, my left hook close call experiences over the past decades (luckily none resulting in going down... but some very close calls)...
have been due to vehicles rapidly overtaking me at the last moment. It made no difference what position I had on the road. They seemingly `had' to get round me no matter what!

kwackers
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby kwackers » 21 Jan 2015, 3:36pm

hondated wrote:You can think what you like kwackers and as far as I am concerned without looking at all of the evidence no one has any right whatsoever to pontificate over who was to blame for this tragic accident.

Except that's exactly what you did! You obviously added the disclaimer to this case <moderated> but basically your entire rant was predicated on the fact that in these types of accidents it was the cyclists fault and if we could just educate them better then everything would be hunky dory...

Let me just say one thing here. <moderated>

Firstly whether it's wise or not you can't force cyclists to take lessons. Lorry drivers on the other hand by virtue of the size and danger their vehicle represents are supposedly amongst the best trained drivers around (although in my experience that's not always obvious).
If they're unable to do their job safely then it's only right we question their ability and if it turns out the issue isn't with them but with the vehicle then it's only right we turn our attention to that instead.

It's all very well claiming that better training for cyclists would help (and I've no doubt it would) but it certainly wouldn't make as big a dent as you'd like to think, there are many instances where the driver has simply run over a cyclist they've not seen or started overtaking and then turned left without a second thought (and enough videos on youtube showing criminal behaviour by truck drivers to throw doubt on your claims).
At the end of the day if a cyclist makes a mistake or through no fault of their own ends up on the inside of a truck/bus/large vehicle then it's the duty of that driver to be able to spot the issue and deal with it - otherwise what's the point?

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661-Pete
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby 661-Pete » 21 Jan 2015, 4:17pm

Do we have to make this tragic incident the occasion for a slanging match? :evil:
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

AndyBSG
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby AndyBSG » 21 Jan 2015, 4:45pm

I always find rule 183 of the Highway code particularly relevant regarding left hooks

183
When turning Left

- keep as close to the left as is safe and practicable
- give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane or tramway from either direction.

For me that seems to indicate that the cycling lane is a valid lane of traffic in the same way that a normal lane containing a car is and that if you want to go across that lane to turn left then it's your responsibility to make sure it is safe to do so.

If you are not 100% sure there isn't a cyclist there then you should not be turning, which completely negates any SMIDSY or blind spot excuses in my opinion.

Admittedly, it makes no statement regarding turning left when there isn't a cycle lane but i've been left hooked enough on cycle lanes and then received a torrent of abuse from the guilty party to know that none of them follow that rule!

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hondated
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby hondated » 21 Jan 2015, 6:36pm

kwackers wrote:
Except that's exactly what you did! You obviously added the disclaimer to this case <moderated>but basically your entire rant was predicated on the fact that in these types of accidents it was the cyclists fault and if we could just educate them better then everything would be hunky dory...



<moderated> and have to resort to personal insults so its not worth having a dialogue with you.
Why would I need a disclaimer as the facts and I will repeat what I have stated that no one can judge anyone without having all of the evidence to look at as to who was at fault.

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hondated
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby hondated » 21 Jan 2015, 6:37pm

661-Pete wrote:Do we have to make this tragic incident the occasion for a slanging match? :evil:


Fair point I have made my last comment on this matter.

eileithyia
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby eileithyia » 22 Jan 2015, 7:48am

We should be offering condolences for this tragedy not arguing, i am sure we all agree any cyclists death is one death to many.
I note the crossing cycle lanes has been mentioned, a quick look at street view of the junction show both roads are quite narrow esp where Bethune Rd joins Amethurst Park, there are no cycle lanes but interestingly (and can be seen in the photo at the scene), there are bollards around the left corner of the T-junction...
I thought one of problems was cyclists being crushed against railings/bollards and agreement that they should be removed....

This is not a comment on the possibly causes, who might be at fault etc., just an observation of the junction.
I stand and rejoice everytime I see a woman ride by on a wheel the picture of free, untrammeled womanhood. HG Wells

kwackers
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby kwackers » 22 Jan 2015, 9:04am

hondated wrote:<moderated> and have to resort to personal insults so its not worth having a dialogue with you.
Why would I need a disclaimer as the facts and I will repeat what I have stated that no one can judge anyone without having all of the evidence to look at as to who was at fault.

So what does this mean then?
hondated wrote:Look this is getting ridiculous something needs to be done promptly to make sure these needless deaths stop happening.
One of the ways to bring this about is to pass legislation that before anyone can cycle on our roads they must pass their cycle proficiency test.

If that's not victim blaming what is it?

My experience of lorries on roads is that they're a long way from being anything like as safe as you seem to imply. If I sound annoyed then like you it's because I am but the difference is I think the blame should be placed fairly and squarely at the drivers and/or the design of the vehicles.
The law is actually very simple, if it's not safe to proceed then you shouldn't and if for whatever reason a cyclist is on your inside then it's very obviously not safe to proceed and if the design of the vehicle prevents you from knowing someone is there then those vehicles shouldn't be allowed on roads where they can mix with vulnerable users.
End of.

kwackers
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby kwackers » 22 Jan 2015, 9:27am

eileithyia wrote:We should be offering condolences for this tragedy not arguing, i am sure we all agree any cyclists death is one death to many.

And using sad events like this to talk about the issues surely?

If we believe as hondated obviously does that the problem is the cyclist is the problem then why don't we agree better training is the answer?
If as I believe the onus is on the driver and vehicle design then why don't we agree to fix those?

If cyclists aren't in agreement what chance of getting this sorted by folk who predominantly drive?

Condolences are all very well but if I were her relative I'd want answers and I'd want solutions. I'd want her death to count for something and be a turning point.

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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jan 2015, 9:32am

kwackers wrote:
eileithyia wrote:We should be offering condolences for this tragedy not arguing, i am sure we all agree any cyclists death is one death to many.

And using sad events like this to talk about the issues surely?

And if all parties focused on that, it would be better. These are emotive events, but best discussed with a cool and dispassionate approach.