Female Cyclist Death In North London

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reohn2
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby reohn2 » 22 Jan 2015, 9:53am

This sad affair is yet another indication of a poor system which allows this kind of thing to continue and I agree whole heartedly with Kwackers it needs fixing.
It can be fixed but those capable of fixing it simply won't,I offer condolences to the family and loved ones of the deceased,but they're useless if they feel their loved one hasn't died needlessly,unfortunately as someone mentioned up thread there'd need to be many more deaths before it registered in the public's consciousness or for those who can make changes will.
Even then going off their track record the answer would be to blame the victim and move the remaining cyclists out of the way of dangerous vehicles,not put the blame where it belongs and make the operators of such vehicles accountable for their actions,that is the way IMHO of the UK's attitude to cycling,sadly.
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Flinders
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby Flinders » 22 Jan 2015, 10:12am

hondated wrote:Exactly whats that all about.
Given you have never driven a HGV vehicle you have no comprehension of just how difficult it can be to get one around a corner. Those that have will tell you that on most occasions whilst they are signalling left they may actually have to steer the vehicle right to get the vehicle around the corner.
In fact sometimes its easier to get an Artic around the corner than it is a 6 or 8 wheeler. Your probably have to Goggle that description to understand what I mean.
This point reinforces my idea of the need for a certain level of competence prior to riding a bike on the road and also perhaps introduce a cycling element either theoretically or practically in the HGV test.


I have never driven an HGV, though I have been in the cab of one more than once, mostly long HGVs that weren't artics, and I am perfectly able to see how difficult it is to drive one- I need no patronising lessons from you. I agree that it is difficult to steer around corners in one, especially if you are carrying a difficult load, like large live animals. But precisely because of that, I would not overtake a cyclist approaching a junction, I'd 'stay back'.

Edited to point out that I did not suggest, and do not suggest now, who was to blame in this specific case, as none of us know that.

pwa
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby pwa » 22 Jan 2015, 10:23am

I read the report looking for clues for what went wrong and, frankly, we don't have enough information to apportion blame at this time. If the lorry was overtaking when the collision happened, then I would be tending towards blaming the driver. If the cyclist was overtaking on the inside and there was no cycle lane I would suspect an unwise bit of cycling. There are various things that may have happened here. We just don't know.

I'm just glad I don't have to cycle in a busy city, and I wish those of you who do a long and healthy life. Things are far from ideal out there, but over time the fact that people continue to ride in London and other built-up areas means that the needs of cyclists are creeping up the agenda.

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Vantage
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby Vantage » 22 Jan 2015, 11:00am

I don't believe hondated was pointing the blame at anyone, merely stating that cyclists and drivers on both sides need training to use the roads. Without training, all that's left is learning the hard way.
I never had cycle training, I learned (and continue to learn) the hard way and it frankly amazes me that I'm still alive after some of the hits I've taken as a result of my own stupidity and impatience. You'd think after 20+ years of cycling that I'd treat a mini roundabout with the respect it deserves and not roll through it thinking the big 4x4 approaching from the right would wait and let me pass. Nope. He stopped (with tyres locked up) a foot over the line where I'd been a split second earlier. That was on Tuesday.
To balance things out, Last night I ploughed into the side of some eejits car because he overtook me, braked hard and turned left in front of me. No damage to either party, but he got a damn good roasting from me.
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kwackers
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby kwackers » 22 Jan 2015, 11:24am

Vantage wrote:I don't believe hondated was pointing the blame at anyone, merely stating that cyclists and drivers on both sides need training to use the roads. Without training, all that's left is learning the hard way.

No he didn't. At no point did he claim it was a two way thing.
His premise was that education was the key and he qualified that by saying that back when he drove HGV's there were fewer issues with cyclists implying that cyclists these days were in some way more dangerous...

However as I mentioned above I think training will have an impact, the problem though is that I see far too much poor driving to really believe that it's all the cyclists fault or that training will really make enough difference.

Not only that but sometimes circumstance means you end up in a position you'd rather not be in. An example for me was when an artic began overtaking me but midway moved back to the kerb because of a stationary vehicle waiting to turn right in the road. He knew that vehicle was there, he should have hung back but chose not to. I made an emergency exit to the pavement - which has luck had it just happened to have an ramp nearby I could use. A quick trip round youtube will find you plenty of similar near misses, and for every 'N' near misses there's one that isn't.

With the best will in the world most cyclists will end up making a mistake at some point. The counter to that should be drivers that are well enough trained along with vehicles that are safe such that should such a thing happen the driver will be able to avoid the accident.
This is similar to speed limits, you drive at the speed limit not because you personally can't drive any faster but because if someone else makes a mistake the consequences are a lot less serious.

It's also no different to my annoyance at cyclists who berate pedestrians for getting in their way. Pedestrians don't even have to be compos mentis, the onus is on the cyclist to ride safely enough to allow them to deal with stupidity from pedestrians and this has to be applied in a tiered system all the way to the top.
That is fundamentally the basic issue of road safety, once you have that then more training is the icing on the cake but until then the best training in the world won't stop you being squished by a tipper truck driver paid by the load and in a rush.

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hondated
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby hondated » 22 Jan 2015, 1:52pm

kwackers contrary to what I have said I will add another reply.
I think I can see where you misconstrued what I was saying and I now understand why you were annoyed with me.
Contrary to what you think I implied when I mentioned the lower mirrors on todays HGV vehicles what I was trying to say was that given that, there are less excuses for cyclists not to be seen by the vehicle driver. Because these are used to look down on the wheels so there must be more opportunity to spot a cyclist that may have crept up on the inside.
Sadly whether we agree or disagree it will matter not a jot to all those concerned with this sad lose of life.

kwackers
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby kwackers » 22 Jan 2015, 1:58pm

hondated wrote:kwackers contrary to what I have said I will add another reply.
I think I can see where you misconstrued what I was saying and I now understand why you were annoyed with me.
Contrary to what you think I implied when I mentioned the lower mirrors on todays HGV vehicles what I was trying to say was that given that, there are less excuses for cyclists not to be seen by the vehicle driver. Because these are used to look down on the wheels so there must be more opportunity to spot a cyclist that may have crept up on the inside.
Sadly whether we agree or disagree it will matter not a jot to all those concerned with this sad lose of life.

Fair enough.
Looks like we're probably singing from the same songbook then.

(Annoyed with you? Not really. Annoyed with the message I thought you were presenting. Yes.)

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hondated
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby hondated » 22 Jan 2015, 5:05pm

Thank you Kwackers I appreciate that and yes we are singing from the same hymn. Also apologies for any distress my comments may have caused you Ted

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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby Bonefishblues » 23 Jan 2015, 2:20pm

I didn't comment because I didn't really feel qualified, tbh, but I came across this graphic (in an enlightening, not any other way) footage when reading a thread on another Forum which made me appreciate this arena perhaps a little better. I expect many who are better acquainted with the particular area are will have seen it, but in case not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk ... e=youtu.be

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby [XAP]Bob » 23 Jan 2015, 2:47pm

Very incomplete view.

1) Not all current mirrors are there, and even on those shown I can see bits of cyclists.
2) There is no dynamic - that is a static layout, where the roads are not. People have to move into those areas (i.e. lorry drivers positions themselves around cyclists, and cyclists position themselves around lorries) and they should be visible whilst doing so.


More importantly though - this is why HGVs should require a banksman...
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AlaninWales
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby AlaninWales » 23 Jan 2015, 2:48pm

That's supposed to be making the point that when the articulated truck has started to turn, the mirrors reflect more and more- just the trailer. However, those mirrors are clearly adjusted to 'over-do' the effect and miss the cyclists - because they show vast amounts of white cab instead of blue trailer!.

Non-articulated trucks have different issues, ones without the extra low mirrors (as apparently was the case in this incident) have many more (and would be illegal in London under the proposed changes that BJ might make - which I understand are opposed by London's road haulage industry association).

Whatever the issues, it should not be acceptable to use vehicles on public roads which can 'lose' vulnerable road users (which in the case of such trucks includes drivers of cars) so easily. Trucks used to have a driver and 'mate' - a banksman or co-driver to look out for such issues. whether this was enough is moot, the industry has got rid of them on cost grounds - except on sites where H&S at Work insists they are used. If you think about it, that's quite significant: In a place where the suroundings are controlled, where everyone is an employee and can be trained to the dangers of trucks - a banksman is required. Take the truck away from the trained workforce and use it amongst the general public (who are patently not going to be as knowledgeable on average about truck dangers and requirements, however many cycle proficiency courses you run) - and magically a banksman is not required for safety!

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Vantage
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby Vantage » 23 Jan 2015, 2:57pm

The only license I ever held was for a forklift and I haven't even driven one of those for 8 or 9 years and they (at the time I drove) afaik, weren't required to have mirrors, but,
even the mirror on my bike is adjustable.
A member here, Hexhome once said there is no such thing as a blind spot on a truck, just a lack of looking properly. He's a HGV driver. I put the remark to my dad who's been driving trucks for the best part of 40+ years without a single accident* and he agreed with it.

*The exception being one muppit who didn't understand the idea that undertaking a truck on a motorway then moving in front of it with little room and braking hard before an exit leaves you with 40+ tons of truck parked in your boot
Bill


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661-Pete
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby 661-Pete » 23 Jan 2015, 2:58pm

The banksman (should that be 'banksperson'? :) ) idea sounds good to me. Wasn't there a rule, some time ago, that a certain type of HGV: wagon-and-drag, had to have a second person in the cab? But of course, if this were (re-)implemented, we'd all end up paying for it, seeing as freight transport costs are factored into the cost of living.

I must admit, I now have a healthy feeling of nervousness whenever a rigid lorry, especially skip carrier or tipper truck, comes trundling up behind me. More so than I used to: I think that for many years I adopted a too-easy-going attitude to the dangers on our roads :oops: . But now, what with all these tragedies over recent years, they do scare me. If I'm bold enough, I will stay in primary and hold one back until I'm absolutely sure of a safe place for it to pass. But I'm not comfortable about doing that either - and it's not just about the hooting that ensues.... :|
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kwackers
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby kwackers » 23 Jan 2015, 3:06pm

Vantage wrote:The only license I ever held was for a forklift and I haven't even driven one of those for 8 or 9 years and they (at the time I drove) afaik, weren't required to have mirrors, but,

Funnily enough a couple of weeks ago I was cycling up a road. A few hundred meters up the road in his companies driveway was a guy in a forklift talking to his mate and facing the same direction as I was travelling.
As I was going past he suddenly reversed and turned - probably only moved about 3 or 4 feet but forklifts have a staggeringly good turning circle which pretty much simply rotated him around the front wheels and had the consequence of swinging the forks out into the road at my neck height!
With no chance to brake I swerved and only narrowly avoided them by inches. (It's a quiet road and I suspect he was relying on his ears).
I heard someone say "richard head" but whether that was aimed at me or the driver I'll never know...

Had he had mirrors he might have seen me coming, certainly he'd had no intention of actually looking behind him.

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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby Vorpal » 23 Jan 2015, 3:20pm

661-Pete wrote:The banksman (should that be 'banksperson'? :) ) idea sounds good to me. Wasn't there a rule, some time ago, that a certain type of HGV: wagon-and-drag, had to have a second person in the cab? But of course, if this were (re-)implemented, we'd all end up paying for it, seeing as freight transport costs are factored into the cost of living.

Or maybe it would just cause a partial shift back towards rail?
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