Female Cyclist Death In North London

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Valbrona
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby Valbrona » 23 Jan 2015, 9:01pm

AndyBSG wrote:Yet again it's at a junction and yet again it involves a HGV and it seems that, yet again, it was also a tipper truck.


But aren't tipper truck drivers the bottom-feeders of the truck driver community and are the type likely to show the least responsibility?
I should coco.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby [XAP]Bob » 23 Jan 2015, 10:49pm

661-Pete wrote:The banksman (should that be 'banksperson'? :) ) idea sounds good to me. Wasn't there a rule, some time ago, that a certain type of HGV: wagon-and-drag, had to have a second person in the cab? But of course, if this were (re-)implemented, we'd all end up paying for it, seeing as freight transport costs are factored into the cost of living.


We're already paying, it's just that some families are paying the ultimate price and the rest of us are paying in fear.

I see no reason to not require banksmen in urban areas at least.
I also see no reason to have HGVs moving around urban areas during peak traffic, with or without banksmen.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

AlaninWales
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby AlaninWales » 23 Jan 2015, 10:51pm

Valbrona wrote:
AndyBSG wrote:Yet again it's at a junction and yet again it involves a HGV and it seems that, yet again, it was also a tipper truck.


But aren't tipper truck drivers the bottom-feeders of the truck driver community and are the type likely to show the least responsibility?

What does "bottom feeders" mean? The dregs who have been rejected by others? Drivers with a criminal conviction (have those who have served their terms paid their debt to society ?) ? Those just passed their certificates and looking for work?
Are you really putting all in the same category? Surely if I hadn't had a dram there might be others wanting employment as tipper drivers?

kwackers
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby kwackers » 23 Jan 2015, 11:23pm

AlaninWales wrote:What does "bottom feeders" mean? The dregs who have been rejected by others? Drivers with a criminal conviction (have those who have served their terms paid their debt to society ?) ?
Those just passed their certificates and looking for work?
Are you really putting all in the same category? Surely if I hadn't had a dram there might be others wanting employment as tipper drivers?

To be fair a friend of mine who's a truck driver (and who has worked as a tipper lorry driver) is pretty dismissive of them as a group.
I get the impression that for a lot of them some of what you mention above applies...

pwa
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby pwa » 24 Jan 2015, 11:30am

I am first and foremost a cyclist, but I am also a white van driver. And I am sure that somewhere out there is a keen cyclist who is also a tipper truck driver. Let's not descend into tribalism here. Bad, dangerous use of our roads should be condemned, but we should not lash out at people simply because of their mode of travel. After all, aren't we cyclists victims of that sort of misplaced anger sometimes?

kwackers
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby kwackers » 24 Jan 2015, 6:49pm

pwa wrote:I am first and foremost a cyclist, but I am also a white van driver. And I am sure that somewhere out there is a keen cyclist who is also a tipper truck driver. Let's not descend into tribalism here. Bad, dangerous use of our roads should be condemned, but we should not lash out at people simply because of their mode of travel. After all, aren't we cyclists victims of that sort of misplaced anger sometimes?

I think you're missing the point. Tipper trucks ARE dangerous, considering they represent a teeny tiny percentage of vehicles the danger they present must be absolutely off the scale!

It's at this point I like to mention 'Grundy's Skip Hire of Widnes' as IMO probably the worst drivers I've ever come across. Whether a 8 wheeler tipper or a run of the mill skip wagon I would reckon around half the overtakes they make required me to make some adjustment to my positioning to stay safe and a percentage of those demand that I do so otherwise I would have been hit.
I've been fortunate to have never been passing a junction as one wanted to turn left because TBH I reckon that's the only reason one hasn't squashed me so far.

Given there's nothing any more or less dangerous about tipper trucks compared to any other sort of trucks one has to assume there's something else going on and unless someone can suggest something else then my money is on the driver and/or the conditions they're driving under.

AndyBSG
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby AndyBSG » 24 Jan 2015, 7:45pm

There's 2 main reasons tipper trucks are higher risk than other HGV's

1 - Because they deliver to building sites, excavation sites, etc they don't have a lot of the features of other lorries. I believe they don't have to legally have the same standard of mirrors. They also don't have side rails so instead of knocking a cyclist away they're more likely to get pulled under

2 - Tipper drivers are generally paid per drop rather than a wage so for them driving recklessly means more money

Valbrona
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby Valbrona » 24 Jan 2015, 9:33pm

pwa wrote:I am first and foremost a cyclist, but I am also a white van driver. And I am sure that somewhere out there is a keen cyclist who is also a tipper truck driver. Let's not descend into tribalism here.


I am afraid there is a certain 'dimension' to tipper truck drivers that I think makes them more dangerous on the roads. It ain't just the type of vehicle they drive ...
I should coco.

TonyR
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby TonyR » 24 Jan 2015, 10:52pm

kwackers wrote:Given there's nothing any more or less dangerous about tipper trucks compared to any other sort of trucks one has to assume there's something else going on and unless someone can suggest something else then my money is on the driver and/or the conditions they're driving under.


It's generally because the drivers are employed on piece rates.

TonyR
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby TonyR » 24 Jan 2015, 10:55pm

AndyBSG wrote:There's 2 main reasons tipper trucks are higher risk than other HGV's

1 - Because they deliver to building sites, excavation sites, etc they don't have a lot of the features of other lorries. I believe they don't have to legally have the same standard of mirrors. They also don't have side rails so instead of knocking a cyclist away they're more likely to get pulled under


Construction site lorries are not required by law, as other lorries are, to have safety features like side guards. There seems though to be no reason why they can't. Crossrail for example has demanded they are fitted to any lorries used in the Crossrail construction.

pwa
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby pwa » 25 Jan 2015, 8:11pm

It is unfair to condemn a whole category of road user (in this case tipper drivers) because by doing that you inevitably end up including some who are good drivers. I know a tipper driver who is aged about 60 and delivers stone in a large tipper (20tonnes). I am familiar with the way he drives, and he is the best sort of HGV driver you could hope to meet. He is skilled, he is cheerful and he is patient. He is a good man and he is well respected. I do not doubt all the stories about tipper drivers, but remember to be fair and to say what you say in a way that recognises that there are some good people in the group that you find fault with.

We cyclists are often treated unfairly by people who see bad behaviour and blame every cyclist for it, so we should know better than most about the need to blame the right people, and not aim our anger at everyone who uses a particular vehicle type.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby Bonefishblues » 25 Jan 2015, 8:14pm

I think that's well said.

kwackers
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby kwackers » 25 Jan 2015, 9:49pm

As I said, roughly half the overtakes I have with tipper drivers are poor. In contrast I can go weeks and have not a single problem with other HGV's.
I'm sure there are good tipper truck drivers but IME most aren't - and it IS experience not an assumption.
There's something fundamentally wrong about these vehicles, pretending there isn't won't help anyone. Whether it's design, working practices or simply the sorts of people they attract I've no idea but it's something...

(If they really are a bunch of good eggs, then perhaps someone can explain why in HGV terms they're over represented in the KSI stats?)

pwa
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby pwa » 26 Jan 2015, 7:29am

Kwackers. I'm not really arguing with your main statistical point about tippers. I'm just saying that you should word things in a way that recognises that tipper drivers, like any other group, are individuals, and there are some who don't deserve to be lumped in with the others.

TonyR
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Re: Female Cyclist Death In North London

Postby TonyR » 26 Jan 2015, 7:44am

kwackers wrote:There's something fundamentally wrong about these vehicles, pretending there isn't won't help anyone. Whether it's design, working practices or simply the sorts of people they attract I've no idea but it's something...


Design is design but from limited interactions I think the other two are linked through the operators. So operators pay piece rates which encourage drivers to cut corners to get another run in. Drivers know this to be the case so those unwilling to cut corners avoid tipper driving leading to the selective recruitment of corner cutters.

One driver I came across said he hated the job and the way it forced him to drive but he tried to drive his best in the circumstances because otherwise there were another ten drivers queueing up for his job who wouldn't give a damn and an employer ready to can him for one of them if he did't meet the impossible schedules.