Tipper crash in Bath

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thirdcrank
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby thirdcrank » 16 Feb 2015, 3:55pm

The traffic at schooltimes is referred to in vorpal's links. It seems to have been raised with officials and councillors by at least one local resident.

I suspect things would have been different here if the highway authority or a statutory undertaker had been carrying out works in or near the carriageway. I fancy there would have been a clear system of restrictions to protect the workforce and fair enough. Without that duty of care to employees, things are less pressing. Locals talking about "accidents waiting to happen" are dismissed as NIMBYS etc.

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DaveP
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby DaveP » 16 Feb 2015, 4:40pm

Vorpal wrote:His age doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't have experience driving equipment that is difficult to manage.

I agree, in fact I stumbled across a photo of him driving a sizeable agricultural tractor. I can't imagine how someone could pass their test so readily without some prior experience with larger vehicles. However I was actually thinking about experience of driving on the road and in traffic. I'm not making a judgement about this poor chap when saying that I think a significant amount of such experience would be a sensible requirement.

Vorpal wrote:why his boss would deliberately lead him someplace that seems to have been unsuitable for the vehicle, unless it was bound for the construction site, there.

This could be a very important point, as access to premises is about the only justification for going past restrictions that you can hope to get away with. I never had the occasion or the bottle to pass a width restriction but regularly used roads "not suitable for HGV" or subject to 7.5 tonne weight limits. I think my most blatant was a bridge rated at 6 tonnes except for coaches in a fully loaded 26 tonne truck. It was the only road access for the village... but I always had delivery notes to justify my presence in the area.


mjr wrote:One point not yet covered here is: why do we still let heavy vehicles deliver to/near schools or drive past them (if avoidable) when there are large numbers of children entering/exiting?

Part of the general irrationality that is our historical transport policy. Every one thinks that road access is a good thing, but no one wants the traffic that results. That's not sneering, its a thought I have held sincerely for some time.
Delivering to schools is one problem. You avoid arriving between 8 and 9 in the morning. You wont generally be given access, and if you do get in early, you might have to cease operations and just sit in the middle of the playground until the kids have gone in. They always seem to find it more enjoyable than I do!. Similar principles for lunch and teatime, but the hours are more variable.
Passing or delivering near schools - start by defining near! You do what you can, but sometimes you just run out of options. Sometimes schools are situated on the only through route. Don't go past the school - OK, but where do you park a large vehicle or the necessary time? To be honest, I think it would be more useful to tackle the issue of parents parking near schools. Double parked roads outside schools present a pretty serious hazard in their own right. If the roads were not obstructed they would be safer for all traffic to use. On a regular round, most drivers would try to find a better alternative. If your delivering in a strange town you would really struggle to avoid the vicinity of schools.
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jezer
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby jezer » 17 Feb 2015, 9:08am

The BBC has just announced that two men have been arrested in connection with the crash. No further details yet.
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BSRU
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby BSRU » 17 Feb 2015, 10:15am

The driver:-
A 19-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving and manslaughter by gross negligence.

The boss:-
A 28-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of causing manslaughter by gross negligence.

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661-Pete
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby 661-Pete » 17 Feb 2015, 11:20am

While I'm mindful of the fact that the above relates only to only arrests on suspicion, not charges nor convictions, I feel that my earlier expressed misgivings about the youth and inexperience of this driver, have been somewhat vindicated.
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beardy
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby beardy » 17 Feb 2015, 11:29am

My impression is more that he has been led astray by his boss.

I have worked in places where it is hard to refuse to do things, especially where the boss himself also does what he asks of you. When there is job insecurity and six month sanctions for getting the sack it takes some nerve to make a stand.

There could be a defence that a nineteen year old is more malleable than an older employee but that is incompatible with handing out HGV licences at the same age. You are not allowed to ride a full size motorcycle until you are 21 yet this degree of responsibility is handed out to 19 year olds.

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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Edwards » 17 Feb 2015, 12:34pm

These arrests could also be for an improper servicing schedule or faults with the truck braking system.

The driver and boss are ultimately responsible for those things even though he would not know what to look for if he looked underneath. Exactly the same as the vast majority of drivers of all classes of vehicle.

My feeling is it is best to wait for the full investigation to decide what went wrong in this tragic incident. Then you can lynch somebody if that is your thing.
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Vorpal » 17 Feb 2015, 1:12pm

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-31499753

The article does note that investigation is continuing.
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Mick F
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Mick F » 17 Feb 2015, 1:14pm

beardy wrote:You are not allowed to ride a full size motorcycle until you are 21 yet this degree of responsibility is handed out to 19 year olds.
This is ludicrous. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Until this terrible incident, I was under the impression that you had to be 25 to hold an HGV1 licence.
18 is far too young. Not only far too young, but ludicrously young.
Mick F. Cornwall

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661-Pete
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby 661-Pete » 17 Feb 2015, 2:09pm

Edwards wrote:Then you can lynch somebody if that is your thing.
Beginning with the Secretary of State for Transport? :twisted: Whoever holds that office when the investigation plus any criminal proceedings are complete, or whoever held the office when the HGV driving age was lowered to 19? Or both?
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Vorpal » 17 Feb 2015, 3:08pm

A 16 year old with a tractor licence can drive an agricultural tractor with a trailer or implement on the road as long as the combination is under 24.39t and 2.45 metres wide.

So, 150 hp tractor and 16 tonne trailer. The speed limit for tractors in the UK is still theoretically 20 mph, but most tractors are capable of higher sppeds, and some can travel at up to 36 mph.
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Mick F
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Mick F » 17 Feb 2015, 3:30pm

Vorpal wrote:A 16 year old with a tractor licence can drive an agricultural tractor with a trailer or implement on the road as long as the combination is under 24.39t and 2.45 metres wide.
Screen shot 2015-02-17 at 15.25.47.png
This comes from https://www.gov.uk/vehicles-can-drive

I filled it in as a 16yo with no driving licence.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby reohn2 » 17 Feb 2015, 3:41pm

beardy wrote:...... You are not allowed to ride a full size motorcycle until you are 21.....


You are allowed to ride a motorcycle of upto 600cc so long as you have a full motorcycle licence from the age of 17,but the power must be restricted to 33bhp.
That said,it's so easy to remove the restriction(simple electronic device),as was done by the maniac who killed my granddaughter,as to be almost laughable if the results weren't so tragic,he was 17 years old aided and abetted by his own father who now has to carry the burden that his son killed someone whilst riding mindlessly and killed himself in the process.

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Last edited by reohn2 on 17 Feb 2015, 5:31pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hondated
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby hondated » 17 Feb 2015, 4:12pm

beardy wrote: You are not allowed to ride a full size motorcycle until you are 21 yet this degree of responsibility is handed out to 19 year olds.


beardy is that correct ! I am certainly learning some things from this thread. I have been a motorcyclist for 48 years and I didn't know that. As they say your never too old to learn.

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DaveP
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Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby DaveP » 17 Feb 2015, 4:34pm

hondated wrote:
beardy wrote:I have been a motorcyclist for 48 years and I didn't know that. As they say your never too old to learn.


Crikey!
I know that you used to be able to renew your provisional indefinitely - but 48 years is pushing it :lol:
Trying to retain enough fitness to grow old disgracefully...