Tipper crash in Bath

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
User avatar
DaveP
Posts: 3237
Joined: 9 Mar 2007, 4:20pm
Location: W Mids

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby DaveP » 17 Feb 2015, 4:47pm

Having previously viewed this incident with some degree of sympathy for the driver, I have to say, I am now wondering if I was mistaken.
Time will tell, of course. The simple fact that another person has also been arrested does suggest some possibilities. A failure to keep decent records of vehicles being defected by the drivers and those defects being properly resolved is one. Overloading is another. And some management type showing the new lad the best (ie. quickest ) route is a third - if your boss is leading the way, there's a heck of a lot of pressure to follow him "just this time" and sort it out later. IMO you probably need to be more than 19 to withstand it. Still...
We have had a free ranging discussion about it. I am just going to wait quietly now, and see what turns up in the court reports.
Trying to retain enough fitness to grow old disgracefully... That hasn't changed!

User avatar
hondated
Posts: 2404
Joined: 27 Mar 2008, 7:59am
Location: Eastbourne

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby hondated » 17 Feb 2015, 10:20pm

DaveP wrote:
hondated wrote:
beardy wrote:I have been a motorcyclist for 48 years and I didn't know that. As they say your never too old to learn.


Crikey!
I know that you used to be able to renew your provisional indefinitely - but 48 years is pushing it :lol:

Dave all I had to do was ride my bike around the block competently and not run the instructor over when he stepped into the road for the emergency stop at the age of 16. :wink:

recumbentpanda
Posts: 247
Joined: 6 Apr 2009, 12:13pm

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby recumbentpanda » 18 Feb 2015, 2:06pm

I regularly ride Landsdown Lane, especially the lower, urban half. No opinion on the culpability or otherwise of the driver(s) in this awful incident, but a couple of points of context:

The lower half of LL has been a 20mph limit since the middle of last year. Like most of the 20 limits around Bath this is treated with utter contempt by local drivers.

If, as I believe they are, the drivers concerned were local, there is no way they would not be aware of the nature of LL.

The bottom end of LL is a roundabout, where most descending traffic takes a ninety degree left into Weston Village. Immediately after the roundabout, the road is restricted to single carriageway because of parking. Consequently, a queue of waiting vehicles can be on the exit road which is not visible until you are quite close to the roundabout. Another reason for going slow, but again, not much considered by local drivers.

But, someone who knows the road and has lost control of speed will be trying anything they can think of, because there is no escape once you hit that roundabout. Straight ahead is over the flowerbed, through railings and the front door of a church. Left is smack into oncoming traffic or the back of a queue, even if you can make the corner at speed. Right is more possible, but offers a range of stone walls, house walls, ditches and other obstacles unlikely to assist a controlled 'rolling stop'.

Basically, if you lose control where they did, it's panic stations.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 48808
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Mick F » 18 Feb 2015, 2:49pm

You obviously know the road and area well.
From what I heard on the radio, the truck was going to deliver to a building site nearby.

Did they have to go down LL, or is there a better way for a heavily laden HGV?
Is the real problem the fact that they were taking a short cut and should never have gone down LL?

I have no knowledge of the area, or any info about this ........... it's just a guess.
Mick F. Cornwall

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18063
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Vorpal » 18 Feb 2015, 4:46pm

Mick F wrote:You obviously know the road and area well.
From what I heard on the radio, the truck was going to deliver to a building site nearby.

Did they have to go down LL, or is there a better way for a heavily laden HGV?
Is the real problem the fact that they were taking a short cut and should never have gone down LL?

Or just that they didn't do an adequate risk assessment (it doesn't have be a formal risk assessment, though that might be of help in a legal case), which might have found that they should go the long way round and come up LL?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

recumbentpanda
Posts: 247
Joined: 6 Apr 2009, 12:13pm

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby recumbentpanda » 19 Feb 2015, 11:10am

Lansdown Lane is, alas, part of a popular short cut between the west side of Bath and the M5. It is regularly used by HGVs even now. The main alternative is the almost equally steep hill Lansdown Road, which ends in a four-way junction in the centre of town that has also been the scene of particularly harrowing HGV brake failure incidents in the past.

There are flatter routes, but they are longer and often more heavily trafficked, so the temptation to risk it remains strong.

There are some indications, as yet unconfirmed, that the issue might not have been loss of control over speed, so much as direction. "The driver had swerved to avoid an earlier accident." The fact that the truck ended up on its side suggests the possibility of a runaway 'speed wobble' caused by the driver over-reacting in panic, swerving left, right, left etc.

Given there is a high retaining wall on the left, I wouldn't have had much opportunity to get out of the way if I had been going up hill at the time. I shall be using my own alternative route until they ban the HGVs at least!

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18063
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Vorpal » 19 Feb 2015, 11:52am

The men arrested have been released on bail
http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-02-1 ... d-on-bail/

According to this article (which does have some errors in it), the brakes were found to be faulty, and the company, Grittenham Haulage , have been fine £5000 for failure to maintain the brakes. It also says,
The bereaved families fought successfully to overturn a decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to bring a charge of manslaughter against the company, but by the time the firm was eventually charged the evidence was insufficient to gain a conviction
which was reported before the men were arrested.
http://www.safebraking.com/category/bra ... orld-news/
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

reohn2
Posts: 38799
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby reohn2 » 19 Feb 2015, 12:50pm

Vorpal wrote:.........According to this article (which does have some errors in it), the brakes were found to be faulty, and the company, Grittenham Haulage , have been fine £5000 for failure to maintain the brakes. It also says,
The bereaved families fought successfully to overturn a decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to bring a charge of manslaughter against the company, but by the time the firm was eventually charged the evidence was insufficient to gain a conviction
which was reported before the men were arrested.
http://www.safebraking.com/category/bra ... orld-news/


IMHO that article should be taken with a pinch of salt,it seems to be a spoof in very bad taste :?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18063
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Vorpal » 19 Feb 2015, 12:57pm

I don't think it's a spoof. It appears to be a collection of information about various brake failure incidents. But it's clear that not all of the information is correct, and nothing is substantiated.

So, yes, take it with a pinch of salt, but no, i don't think it is a spoof, more like rumour reported as fact.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

thirdcrank
Posts: 28700
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Feb 2015, 4:18pm

The truck was found to have eight faulty brakes, but the only successful charge against the company was a failure to maintain the brakes, resulting in a £5,000 fine.

The bereaved families fought successfully to overturn a decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to bring a charge of manslaughter against the company, but by the time the firm was eventually charged the evidence was insufficient to gain a conviction.


That bit must surely be garbage.

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 9802
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby 661-Pete » 19 Feb 2015, 5:06pm

Or possibly it relates to a completely different incident, and they've got the stories mixed up? Adding to what TC says, the timescale is impossible.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 48808
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Mick F » 19 Feb 2015, 5:23pm

recumbentpanda wrote:There are some indications, as yet unconfirmed, that the issue might not have been loss of control over speed, so much as direction. "The driver had swerved to avoid an earlier accident." The fact that the truck ended up on its side suggests the possibility of a runaway 'speed wobble' caused by the driver over-reacting in panic, swerving left, right, left etc.
Thanks for that.
It has the ring of truth about it.

Mrs Mick F heard the early Radio4 news about the incident, and told me she thought the newsreader said something about an accident that the lorry had to avoid. Not heard that bit of the story since.
Mick F. Cornwall

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18063
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Vorpal » 19 Feb 2015, 6:12pm

661-Pete wrote:Or possibly it relates to a completely different incident, and they've got the stories mixed up? Adding to what TC says, the timescale is impossible.

There can't be too many firms with the same name about, but I agree that it doesn't make sense.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18063
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Vorpal » 15 Dec 2015, 3:28pm

“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18063
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Tipper crash in Bath

Postby Vorpal » 18 Jun 2016, 5:51pm

A third person has been charged. All three are due to appear in court on the 1st July

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-somerset-36498348
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom