Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Edwards
Posts: 5978
Joined: 16 Mar 2007, 10:09pm
Location: Birmingham

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby Edwards » 19 Feb 2015, 9:06pm

Another tragedy with quits a few people who will probably never get over it.
My sympathy to all those involved in any way.
Keith Edwards
I do not care about spelling and grammar

User avatar
Sweep
Posts: 5135
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 4:57pm
Location: London

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby Sweep » 20 Feb 2015, 9:04am

SteveHunter wrote:I've had better days. Large scotch required when I get home.

Sorry to hear this steve.

I trust you will be getting in touch with the authorities.

A tragedy but of course we also need to think of the lorry driver.
Sweep

Mark1978
Posts: 4912
Joined: 17 Jul 2012, 8:47am
Location: Chester-le-Street, County Durham

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby Mark1978 » 20 Feb 2015, 9:09am

Blame, up to an extent, doesn't really matter. We should have a road system where large vehicles like lorries never share the same road space with bicycles in the first place. By Steve's account it does look like the cyclist made a mistake, but mistakes should not be punishable by death :(

pwa
Posts: 9604
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby pwa » 20 Feb 2015, 9:30am

Mark

I agree that the blame thing is a distraction and we should be concentrating on getting solutions. But I feel the segregation you want is just going to put bicycles on the footpaths, having to give way at every junction, mixing it with pedestrians. Most cities have a shortage of street space. If we were building cities from scratch we would do it differently, but I think we are stuck with riding on roads for a lot of the time. Many of us know how to do this in a way that minimises the danger to ourselves, but some do not. How do we get the message across?

reohn2
Posts: 34673
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby reohn2 » 20 Feb 2015, 9:54am

SteveHunter wrote:Unfortunately yet another needless loss of life on Londons roads.

Also unfortunately I know the circumstances of todays incident, wrong place at wrong time, and certainly in this instance I don't think we can really lay the blame on the driver of the lorry.

The lorry was turning left and was indicating and had audible warnings. The lorry, which I was behind, was already manoeuvring when the cyclist passed me on the left and then tried to pass the lorry on the left hand side to either attempt to turn left or go straight ahead, unfortunately there wasn't room.

I see too many cyclists try and squeeze down the left hand side of lorries and buses at junctions when I'm riding in London, lorries do need to be safer but a lot of cyclists really do need to accept a bit more responsibility for the way they cut through traffic.


Sorry you had to witness it Steve.
I'm even more sorry that someone didn't have the sense not go down the inside of a left turning and signalling HGV.I don't know what else to say other than it just beggers belief that someone can be that unaware of the consequences of such a manoeuvre.

It does seem Foxyrider has a point:-
.....perhaps training aimed specifically at this group of riders is needed?


The people being killed by left turning HGV'sin London tend to be mostly women.I've considered this before and it's doesn't seem to be pure chance,why is that?.

My thoughts are with the dead woman's family and the driver,not mention anyone who witnessed this awful tragedy.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

reohn2
Posts: 34673
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby reohn2 » 20 Feb 2015, 10:01am

Mark1978 wrote:Blame, up to an extent, doesn't really matter.[/quoote]
No but cause does and it would seem that cause could,with a little forethought,have been eliminated.


We should have a road system where large vehicles like lorries never share the same road space with bicycles in the first place.

But until then cyclists need to ride responsibly on roads they do share with other vehicles,the onus can't be put entirely on others.

By Steve's account it does look like the cyclist made a mistake, but mistakes should not be punishable by death :(


You'll have to forgive me if you don't agree,but to ride up the inside of a left indicating HGV is inviting disaster and is an incredibly stupid thing to do.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby TonyR » 20 Feb 2015, 10:50am

Given the account of what happened I am now wondering whether the lorry had side guards on it. We can't stop people making mistakes but we can try to mitigate the consequences of those mistakes. Side guards are a cheap and simple mitigation that stops the cyclists falling under the lorry and its rear wheels. That may or may not have helped here depending on whether she was squashed against the hoardings or knocked under the wheels (the reports of hearing the bike being crushed under the wheels tends to suggest the latter). Side guards are not mandatory on construction lorries but will be in London from September and we should be campaigning for them to be nationwide.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 13088
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby mjr » 20 Feb 2015, 11:12am

pwa wrote:I agree that the blame thing is a distraction and we should be concentrating on getting solutions. But I feel the segregation you want is just going to put bicycles on the footpaths, having to give way at every junction, mixing it with pedestrians.

No, mixed use footways are not segregation (or protected space). It's the sort of thing that might do at a push if space really is limited (for example, we're already down to a single-track carriageway or less), but no-one likes it alongside carriageways and none of the cycling organisations are calling for that as far as I know. People on foot need protected space alongside busy routes too and we haven't got it if there are bikes on it.
Most cities have a shortage of street space. If we were building cities from scratch we would do it differently, but I think we are stuck with riding on roads for a lot of the time.

Aieeee, it's the "there is no space" myth. Yet other countries with ancient towns can do it. They're not afraid to say some streets are for people only.

Also, Victoria Street is mahooosive: wide footways, wide carriageway, no cycleway. The junction where this happened has been narrowed by construction which should have been a huge hint to authorities that diversions should have been set up using nearby streets for at least some traffic (probably heavier motor vehicles).
Many of us know how to do this in a way that minimises the danger to ourselves, but some do not. How do we get the message across?

You can't. You can't fix killer roads with education because you'll never get 100% reach of that education (of riders or motorists - or walkers?). It's worth doing because it cuts numbers and is cheap but it's no substitute for Vision Zero design - that requires redesigns with refits at resurfacing time in most cases, or in some cases rebuilds.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 16871
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby [XAP]Bob » 20 Feb 2015, 11:26am

TonyR wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:Additional safety devices (mirrors, banksmen) are clearly needed on these vehicles in London (and probably elsewhere).

The fact that it is yet another construction vehicle just shows how idiotic and short sighted were the decisions to exempt that class of vehicle from requirements for side barriers and additional mirrors etc.


All of these will become mandatory in London this year from 1 September. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/freight/ ... rry-scheme

But as they say, the single most important piece of safety equipment in a vehicle is the nut holding the steering wheel.


No banksmen though...

And that's the one "feature" which could reasonably be expected to have a focus purely on the space "swept" by the lorry, and therefore able to warn the driver AND the cyclist of impending collision.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

AlaninWales
Posts: 1539
Joined: 26 Oct 2012, 1:47pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby AlaninWales » 20 Feb 2015, 11:43am

Indeed, AIUI a banksman is required on work sites - where everyone is (or at least should be) trained and aware of the danger of large, heavy, un-sighted, dangerous vehicles. Where these same vehicles are used around inexperienced road users however, no such safety feature is required. The logic of this is patently daft.

Mark1978
Posts: 4912
Joined: 17 Jul 2012, 8:47am
Location: Chester-le-Street, County Durham

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby Mark1978 » 20 Feb 2015, 11:55am

reohn2 wrote:
You'll have to forgive me if you don't agree,but to ride up the inside of a left indicating HGV is inviting disaster and is an incredibly stupid thing to do.


Incredibly stupid yes. But have you honestly never done something very stupid? Never?

pwa
Posts: 9604
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby pwa » 20 Feb 2015, 12:03pm

In fairness to reohn, I have never ridden up the left hand side of a lorry that was indicating left, or that could be turning left without indicating. Never. That would be suicidal.

danhopgood
Posts: 96
Joined: 20 Jan 2015, 5:16pm

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby danhopgood » 20 Feb 2015, 12:21pm

AlaninWales wrote:Indeed, AIUI a banksman is required on work sites - where everyone is (or at least should be) trained and aware of the danger of large, heavy, un-sighted, dangerous vehicles. Where these same vehicles are used around inexperienced road users however, no such safety feature is required. The logic of this is patently daft.


The difference in a works site though is that the contractor is in total control of what happens there. On a public road, the rules of the road apply and the contractor - along with everyone else - should be following those. If temporary road layouts are necessary these have to be designed and approved by the local authority in accordance with Chapter 8 of the Traffic Signs Manual. Occasionally there are instances where an operative may need to intervene - hold up traffic for example, but a full time banksman wouldn't be permitted out on the road in my view on the grounds that it's impractical. The road layout in question wass a "tunnel" with no safe space for a banksman to be.

Mark1978
Posts: 4912
Joined: 17 Jul 2012, 8:47am
Location: Chester-le-Street, County Durham

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby Mark1978 » 20 Feb 2015, 12:45pm

pwa wrote:Mark

I agree that the blame thing is a distraction and we should be concentrating on getting solutions. But I feel the segregation you want is just going to put bicycles on the footpaths, having to give way at every junction, mixing it with pedestrians.


That's a common fear of course, but it always seems to be that the assumption is that there is nothing between cycling on the road with construction traffic and riding on the pavement. Far from it, dedicated cycling infrastructure - not converted footpaths, doesn't have nearly as many of those type of problem.

Most cities have a shortage of street space. If we were building cities from scratch we would do it differently, but I think we are stuck with riding on roads for a lot of the time. Many of us know how to do this in a way that minimises the danger to ourselves, but some do not. How do we get the message across?


Most cities, even our most ancient ones have more than enough space, however we've decided to prioritise motor transport in that space - it's our own priorities rather than physical space which is the issue

iandriver
Posts: 2049
Joined: 10 Jun 2009, 2:09pm
Location: Cambridge.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby iandriver » 20 Feb 2015, 1:52pm

Mark1978 wrote:Blame, up to an extent, doesn't really matter. We should have a road system where large vehicles like lorries never share the same road space with bicycles in the first place. By Steve's account it does look like the cyclist made a mistake, but mistakes should not be punishable by death :(


I'm right with you there Mark. This is the big quote for me

"crammed in with 8ft fences either side and nowhere to go - and construction vehicles arriving and leaving all day, including rush hour"

It doesn't have to be that way, fences can be built differently. You can run a construction site without 24 hour access.
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....