Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

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Vorpal
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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby Vorpal » 26 Feb 2015, 2:54pm

I can't see how it can possibly help to make undertaking illegal. All that will do is make cyclists into outlaws. It is a maneouver that many people believe is one of the main advantages to cycling in traffic. And it currently is the only legal way to cross advanced stop lines.

I also cannot accept so easily things like space limitations and 'old' streets. London is netiher the most space-limited nor highest population density city in Europe.

If continental cities like Amsterdam with its narrow, medieval streets, and canal systems can create cycle-firendly space; if Paris with the highest population density in Europe can create cycle friendly space, then so can London. The investment required to do so has to be considered as cost preventive measures. Tragedies like the one in this thread cost taxpayers huge amounts of money, even without considering the loss to society and the family of the deceased.

Old, narrow streets are more suited to bicycle traffic than motor traffic.

I expect it is unrealistic to expect civil planners, highwaymen, or politicians in the UK to recognise that, but until they do, we will have discussions like this.
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beardy
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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby beardy » 26 Feb 2015, 3:03pm

I can't see how it can possibly help to make undertaking illegal. All that will do is make cyclists into outlaws. It is a maneouver that many people believe is one of the main advantages to cycling in traffic. And it currently is the only legal way to cross advanced stop lines.


Well they made using a hand held phone while driving illegal and speeding is illegal too.
On the other hand some people do obey a law when it is made.

Filtering could be continued either in marked, wide lanes which are clearly separate lanes or on the outside as is preferred by many here.

The advanced stop lines could be exempted, repainted or entered from any position, as it is a good many of them are painted without any entry point at all and this doesnt affect their use at all.

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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby mjr » 26 Feb 2015, 3:49pm

beardy wrote:Filtering could be continued either in marked, wide lanes which are clearly separate lanes or on the outside as is preferred by many here.

And so someone would die making the right turn out of Bressenden Place instead of the left turn... then what?
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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby beardy » 26 Feb 2015, 3:56pm

That would be half the numbers of deaths.

As a driver I can cope with watching my front, my back and my right hand side but I have not managed to watch everywhere successfully, the left side is traditionally the one that you feel safe about. It is after all against the highway code to overtake on that side.
If vehicles are only supposed to pass on the outside it makes a HGV driver's job more manageable.

I am carrying on from XAPBob's starting point of analysing the problem and possible solutions and thinking through them, which, I understand, is not quite in line with the thinking of those who have already decided the best answer and are just trying to convince others who have already decided on a contradictory best answer.


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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby mjr » 26 Feb 2015, 4:44pm

beardy wrote:As a driver I can cope with watching my front, my back and my right hand side but I have not managed to watch everywhere successfully, the left side is traditionally the one that you feel safe about. It is after all against the highway code to overtake on that side.

Please reread it:
Rule 163 wrote:stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left


There's also the not so small matter of scofflaws.
I am carrying on from XAPBob's starting point of analysing the problem and possible solutions and thinking through them, which, I understand, is not quite in line with the thinking of those who have already decided the best answer and are just trying to convince others who have already decided on a contradictory best answer.

Well, I think the best answer is to change the awful road layout at Bressenden Place and take steps to ensure it is never replicated again. That doesn't contradict the overtaking law change idea, but independently of road layouts, I think outlawing left-side overtakes would probably be a net harm.

danhopgood's link looks like it concerns liability rather than traffic offences but it's still interesting.
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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby pwa » 26 Feb 2015, 4:47pm

I'm leaving this thread now. I think it has served its purpose of allowing us to air our views on this terrible event. Thank you to everyone who has exchanged views with me. As a final post I will list in no particular order a few areas that I think need looking at to make things safer for cyclists at busy road junctions.

1) Infrastructure for cyclists on the road
2) Alternatives to being on the road (where practicable)
3) Careful driving
4) Careful cycling

I think anyone hoping to produce long term improvements must look at all those headings.

Bye

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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby [XAP]Bob » 26 Feb 2015, 5:08pm

I think you're missing an important one - design and operation of large vehicles in public places
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby beardy » 26 Feb 2015, 5:17pm

mjr wrote:
beardy wrote:As a driver I can cope with watching my front, my back and my right hand side but I have not managed to watch everywhere successfully, the left side is traditionally the one that you feel safe about. It is after all against the highway code to overtake on that side.

Please reread it:
Rule 163 wrote:stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left





My comment was about undertaking within the same lane, I have repeatedly said it could be different with separate lanes. Your quote from the highway code is about traffic in separate lanes.

So please cut out the condescending "Please reread it" comments.

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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby danhopgood » 26 Feb 2015, 5:39pm

Beardy, for that particular reference I think you're correct, but there are other references to cyclists passing on the inside elsewhere in the Highway Code. The link I posted earlier was an attempt to highlight how the law interprets what the Highway Code says. There are references there to vehicles "going down the inside" - and the conclusion seems to be going down either side is a "manoeuvre fraught with danger" and the overtaking vehicle is likely to be found at least partly at fault if something goes wrong.

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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby beardy » 26 Feb 2015, 9:30pm

The highway code also warns pedestrians who are using a zebra crossing to watch out for motorists who are overtaking the cars which have stopped to let them cross. That doesnt give cars the right to perform such a manoeuvre.

I dont know about cyclists but there isnt actually a law against overtaking on the left. So if pedestrians are being warned to watch out for cars performing illegal manoeuvres, it is quite reasonable to warn drivers about cyclists who may be performing acts which are legal but dont obey the highway code.

That doesnt actually make them sanctioned. I have never felt happy about the legitimacy of filtering on the inside, even though there is no law specifically banning it.

All of this is just when there isnt a marked cycle lane. It may be that the advice about watching for cyclists on the inside is justified because there are some roads where there is a marked cycle lane.

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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby landsurfer » 26 Feb 2015, 10:26pm

Often on this forum there seems to be a "blame all drivers of motorised vehicles" approach to life.
Then when the posters get off their high horse and put their bike onto the back of their car and drive off they are without blemish.
Has a poll been done ? What is the percentage of CTC members that drive a car... I suspect 90% plus...
A terrible loss of life, and if SH is correct, and I don't doubt he is, wholly the fault of the cyclist.
Absolutely of no comfort to the family, but as a 100k a year driver and very active cyclist the "us and them" approach of many on here is, frankly, a disgrace.
Blame motorists for everything.... until we drive away in our car.
I hope some one puts a "Ghost bike" at the scene, on my visits to Ulster they always make me think about the way I drive.
A pointless loss of life, my condolences for the family and also for the driver of the vehicle.
He didn't get up this morning planning to end a life.
It's not about the bike .. It's about the journey .....
The Road Goes On Forever ........................

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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby beardy » 26 Feb 2015, 10:37pm

Blame motorists for everything.... until we drive away in our car.


If I drove off in my car in the same way as those who I blame then I hope you would blame me too.

I continue to blame motorists when I am driving my car but have little problem with the cyclists that I meet. What is the worst they could do? Dent my wing? (which is rusty anyway).

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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby [XAP]Bob » 26 Feb 2015, 10:51pm

landsurfer wrote:A terrible loss of life, and if SH is correct, and I don't doubt he is, wholly the fault of the cyclist.


No - it's the fault of the system that repeatedly fails to take human life seriously.

I'm not blaming the driver, but the drivers of such vehicles are ridiculously overrepresented in the statistics for serious injuries and death. That isn't this driver's fault, but it is a fact.

These vehicles are not safe on our roads in their current configuration, and with their current operating practices.

Something needs to change, and that is the place to start - as per any H&S issue, start at the dangerous machine, not the victim(s).
In this case (assuming the report up thread is accurate) the lady and driver are *both* victims, although to differing degrees.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

Postby thirdcrank » 27 Feb 2015, 9:29am

landsurfer wrote: as a 100k a year driver ... .


I could well imagine that driving some 2,000 miles a week would influence somebody's world view. It does not justify implying that anybody holding a different view is a humbug.