Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

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kwackers
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby kwackers » 27 Aug 2015, 8:59pm

reohn2 wrote:Vorpal's post above about sums it up,the cyclist was no threat IMO the aggressor is the pedestrian,end of.

I don't deny he was the aggressor but when I watch the video I see the usual might is right approach except this time by a cyclist. (And an approach I witness with more and more frequency as time goes by and cyclist numbers increase.)

Vorpals post imo is wrong on a number of points.
Firstly the 'red man' is a 'red herring'. Pedestrians are under no obligation to wait for the red man, might be advisable and in this case he most certainly should have waited - but he didn't.
"Please dont try to knock me off" can only be one of two things; she thought a collision was possible, in which case why not stop? (As Vorpal pointed out she wasn't going very fast and a quick 'frame by frame' shows she made no attempt to slow down at all.)
Of course perhaps she actually thought for some reason he might knock her off in which case there's even more reason to stop and avoid it! You can see the pedestrian on the video for a fair while, there's absolutely no reason to assume she can see something the camera can't - they both have the same viewpoint after all and if he'd shouted a warning he'd have been facing her and we'd have heard it.

He said she gave him the finger - well something tipped him over the edge so I think it's a fair bet she did. The shaking of her head is simply icing on the cake.

So the scenerio is pretty straightforward.
A ped ill advisedly starts to cross, a bicycle is heading towards him. He continues (no obvious indication he's seen the cyclist) the cyclist realises he's not for stopping and talking to herself comments on the impending 'crash', she passes him closely and gives him the finger whilst shaking her head.
From his pov, he's crossing the road when a cyclist passes v.close and a combination of shock and anger particularly when he sees the cyclist give him the finger causes him to lose it.

It's a bit like the woman that knocked me off, could she have braked? Of course, she didn't though because she believed she had right of way and thinking you have "right of way" somehow makes braking the last thing a person would want to do.

Vorpal
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby Vorpal » 27 Aug 2015, 10:08pm

I know that a pedestrian has no obligation to stop for a red man. Although conventions like that are what makes things easier for everyone, he certainly has the right to walk out into traffic, and that's exactly what he does.

However... He did pause when a car crossed his path, and I think expecting him to wait there for a gap in the traffic is an easy mistake to make. I've made similar mistakes on several occasions, though nothing has ever come of it. All that seems to happen initially is two road users failed to communicate well. No attitude. Just... failure to communicate.

And I didn't say that she could *see* something that can't be seen on the video. I said she may have *noticed* something that wasn't obvious on the video. Body language or expression, perhaps. Soemthing made her fear him. 'Please don't try to knock me off' are not the words of someone expecting a collision, but someone fearing an attack.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Psamathe
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby Psamathe » 27 Aug 2015, 10:25pm

My take on the video (without assuming she did this, he did that - just based on what we can see/hear) is that questions like should she have stopped, did she give him the finger, etc. are not relevant. None of the possible things she might have done (but are not evident from the video) justify the behaviour of the hooligan.

Bottom line (from my opinion) is that she did not hit him, yet he felt he felt it acceptable that he hit her. He was wrong.

If we do want to question what she might have done and assume she did e.g. give him the finger, why did he have to run after her some distance to assault her ? But for me that is not a big issue as whatever the answer, I can see no justification for his attack.

Ian

irc
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby irc » 28 Aug 2015, 1:01am

Psamathe wrote:Bottom line (from my opinion) is that she did not hit him, yet he felt he felt it acceptable that he hit her. He was wrong.

If we do want to question what she might have done and assume she did e.g. give him the finger, why did he have to run after her some distance to assault her ? But for me that is not a big issue as whatever the answer, I can see no justification for his attack.

Ian


Everyone agrees the attack was unjustified. What we are talking about is whether or not any reasonable alternative actions could have avoided the attack.

Use of her brakes or steering for example. Or having had a near miss and verbal exchange, not to mention an alleged finger wagging should she have checked over her shoulder as she cycled away?

If I'm riding in a straight line along a road and an overtaking car hits me I'm completely blameless but the accident is still avoidable if I look in my mirror, see it coming and swerve to my nearside. It isn't my fault if someone punches me in the face but it''s still reasonable to suggest that maybe I could have avoided the punch by reading verbal and non verbal clues and taking avoiding action.

reohn2
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby reohn2 » 28 Aug 2015, 8:00am

kwackers wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Vorpal's post above about sums it up,the cyclist was no threat IMO the aggressor is the pedestrian,end of.

I don't deny he was the aggressor but when I watch the video I see the usual might is right approach except this time by a cyclist. (And an approach I witness with more and more frequency as time goes by and cyclist numbers increase.)

Vorpals post imo is wrong on a number of points.
Firstly the 'red man' is a 'red herring'. Pedestrians are under no obligation to wait for the red man, might be advisable and in this case he most certainly should have waited - but he didn't.


So he was playing chicken?
And when the lady didn't stop he got angry,is that possibly the answer to the "please don't trying and knock me off" plea from the cyclist?
"Please dont try to knock me off" can only be one of two things; she thought a collision was possible, in which case why not stop? (As Vorpal pointed out she wasn't going very fast and a quick 'frame by frame' shows she made no attempt to slow down at all.)
Of course perhaps she actually thought for some reason he might knock her off in which case there's even more reason to stop and avoid it! You can see the pedestrian on the video for a fair while, there's absolutely no reason to assume she can see something the camera can't - they both have the same viewpoint after all and if he'd shouted a warning he'd have been facing her and we'd have heard it.

IMO we'd be assuming a lot from the time he's in the picture,however the cyclist has first hand/real life time to assess the situation and it seems she thought there was some threat to her person otherwise why the plea not to be knocked off?
He said she gave him the finger - well something tipped him over the edge so I think it's a fair bet she did. The shaking of her head is simply icing on the cake.

To my mind you're assuming a lot,and he might already have been over the edge,maybe a chap who lives on the edge,maybe a complete nutter,there's a lot of them about.

So the scenerio is pretty straightforward.
A ped ill advisedly starts to cross, a bicycle is heading towards him. He continues (no obvious indication he's seen the cyclist) the cyclist realises he's not for stopping and talking to herself comments on the impending 'crash', she passes him closely and gives him the finger whilst shaking her head.
From his pov, he's crossing the road when a cyclist passes v.close and a combination of shock and anger particularly when he sees the cyclist give him the finger causes him to lose it.

More assumptions IMHO.

It's a bit like the woman that knocked me off, could she have braked? Of course, she didn't though because she believed she had right of way and thinking you have "right of way" somehow makes braking the last thing a person would want to do.

But that's not what IMO happened in this instance,and sheer aggression and horrible nastiness of the pedestrian's nature is played out in graphic detail a few seconds later.
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Vorpal
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby Vorpal » 28 Aug 2015, 8:21am

irc wrote:Everyone agrees the attack was unjustified. What we are talking about is whether or not any reasonable alternative actions could have avoided the attack.

Yes. He could have not pushed her.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

reohn2
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby reohn2 » 28 Aug 2015, 8:26am

irc wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Bottom line (from my opinion) is that she did not hit him, yet he felt he felt it acceptable that he hit her. He was wrong.

If we do want to question what she might have done and assume she did e.g. give him the finger, why did he have to run after her some distance to assault her ? But for me that is not a big issue as whatever the answer, I can see no justification for his attack.

Ian


Everyone agrees the attack was unjustified. What we are talking about is whether or not any reasonable alternative actions could have avoided the attack.

Use of her brakes or steering for example. Or having had a near miss and verbal exchange, not to mention an alleged finger wagging should she have checked over her shoulder as she cycled away?

If I'm riding in a straight line along a road and an overtaking car hits me I'm completely blameless but the accident is still avoidable if I look in my mirror, see it coming and swerve to my nearside. It isn't my fault if someone punches me in the face but it''s still reasonable to suggest that maybe I could have avoided the punch by reading verbal and non verbal clues and taking avoiding action.


On the one hand I agree that if she'd done a shoulder check and saw him coming after her she could've escaped.
OTOH should people in a so called civilised society need to keep looking over their shoulder to see if anyone's about to assault them over such trivia?
The incident says more about UK society than we're prepared to consider IMHO.
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broadway
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby broadway » 28 Aug 2015, 9:23am

irc wrote:If I'm riding in a straight line along a road and an overtaking car hits me I'm completely blameless but the accident is still avoidable if I look in my mirror, see it coming and swerve to my nearside.


Easy enough to say, however who's to say what the consequence of your sudden swerve is?

kuba
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby kuba » 28 Aug 2015, 10:19am

kwackers wrote:Firstly the 'red man' is a 'red herring'. Pedestrians are under no obligation to wait for the red man, might be advisable and in this case he most certainly should have waited - but he didn't.


Presume you mean "wait for the green man" otherwise it makes no sense? If so, rule 21 states "At traffic lights. There may be special signals for pedestrians. You should only start to cross the road when the green figure shows." We'll probably never agree, but just for the record.

So the only red herring here is the discussion of the cyclist's behaviour, it's irrelevant and also really inappropriate.Interesting gender dynamics though. :shock:

Vorpal wrote:I know that a pedestrian has no obligation to stop for a red man. Although conventions like that are what makes things easier for everyone, he certainly has the right to walk out into traffic, and that's exactly what he does.


I agree with almost everything you say but multiple HC rules state otherwise. You should definitely not walk into traffic but wait for a gap big enough to cross, and wait for the green if applicable. But otherwise you're bang on right, and the only person who could have acted to avoid the assault was its perpetrator.

irc
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby irc » 28 Aug 2015, 10:54am

broadway wrote:
irc wrote:If I'm riding in a straight line along a road and an overtaking car hits me I'm completely blameless but the accident is still avoidable if I look in my mirror, see it coming and swerve to my nearside.


Easy enough to say, however who's to say what the consequence of your sudden swerve is?


I am. That's why I ride 1m from the kerb. Enough space to make close overtakes into comfortable ones. In one case I have had to ride off the road onto a dirt/gravel shoulder. As I was on a stable touring bike with relatively wide tyres I stayed upright. But in any case a crash on gravel would have been better than being hit by a camper van at 60mph which was the alternative.

irc
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby irc » 28 Aug 2015, 10:55am

Vorpal wrote:
irc wrote:Everyone agrees the attack was unjustified. What we are talking about is whether or not any reasonable alternative actions could have avoided the attack.

Yes. He could have not pushed her.


Everyone agrees the attack was unjustified.

irc
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby irc » 28 Aug 2015, 11:05am

reohn2 wrote:On the one hand I agree that if she'd done a shoulder check and saw him coming after her she could've escaped.
OTOH should people in a so called civilised society need to keep looking over their shoulder to see if anyone's about to assault them over such trivia?
The incident says more about UK society than we're prepared to consider IMHO.


I agree. But that is where we are. I've personally three times had to shoulder check and swerve across the road to avoid potential attacks from pedestrians in Glasgow while commuting late at night.

Being aware of your surroundings is a safety issue and for me includes what everyone in the immediate area is doing not just vehicles.

Bicycler
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby Bicycler » 28 Aug 2015, 11:16am

kuba wrote:I agree with almost everything you say but multiple HC rules state otherwise.

They also tell us to wear helmets and also to wear hi-vis when walking at night :roll:
There's also this rule of relevance to at least one of the people involved in this incident:
147: Be considerate. Be careful of and considerate towards all types of road users, especially those requiring extra care:

try to be understanding if other road users cause problems; they may be inexperienced or not know the area well.
be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake.
do not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse. Pull over, calm down and, when you feel relaxed, continue your journey.
Slow down and hold back if a road user pulls out into your path at a junction. Allow them to get clear. Do not over-react by driving too close behind to intimidate them.

kuba
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby kuba » 28 Aug 2015, 12:04pm

Yes it it true the HC states cyclists should wear helmets, and she seems to wear one. Not sure what your point is here.

As for rule 147 well, if you're on a highway then all HC rules are of relevance and apply to everyone equally so again fail to see your point.

Flinders
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Re: Pedestrian pushes cyclist off bike and into traffic

Postby Flinders » 28 Aug 2015, 1:50pm

As a pedestrian I sometimes cross the road on a red man. But only when there is no traffic. If I choose to cross on a red man, it's up to me to find a safe gap, it is not up to the traffic to stop for me. It really is that simple.

And to go back to the OP, I'm pretty damned certain that pedestrian would not have either tried to cross in front of the bike, or assaulted the cyclist, had the cyclist been one of the cyclists round our local army base, who tend to be big powerful blokes in combat uniforms. So it isn't about someone losing it, it's about a cowardly bully who would only 'lose it' very selectively, i.e., with someone weaker than himself.