Gravel/adventure bike or MTB?

[Bmblbzzz]

Taiwan probably. At least, Salsa are part of the QBP group along with Surly and a few others and I know Surly frames are made in Taiwan, so seems likely Salsa are too.

[MikeDee]

Black Mountain Cycles has a nice monster cross frame http://www.blackmtncycles.com/p/black-m ... rames.html. Someone built a 21 pound bike with one. I don't think the bike would be suitable for loaded touring though. I almost bought one, but didn't like the fit. They also have top tube cable routing and horizontal dropouts, which I also don't prefer.

[reohn2]

Taiwan probably. At least, Salsa are part of the QBP group along with Surly and a few others and I know Surly frames are made in Taiwan, so seems likely Salsa are too.

Definitely,it says as much on them.
90%+ of OTP frames are,and have been for some time.The Taiwanese know their stuff IMO where frame fabrication is,so I don't have a problem with that.
That said though,I do wish more were made to the same high standard in Europe,I wouldn't mind say a 20% extra on cost.

[PH]

Black Mountain Cycles has a nice monster cross frame

Monster cross, is that the latest thing? SOMA have one as well:
http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/wolverine

[reohn2]

Black Mountain Cycles has a nice monster cross frame http://www.blackmtncycles.com/p/black-m ... rames.html. Someone built a 21 pound bike with one. I don't think the bike would be suitable for loaded touring though. I almost bought one, but didn't like the fit. They also have top tube cable routing and horizontal dropouts, which I also don't prefer.

I'm not surprised,the head and s/tube angles are steep,fork offset isn't enough which will make for quick steering,and the toptube is almost level.
IMO,a touring/gravel/off road/rough stuff bike,should have a low SO,slack angles,slow(self) steering,an long /high headtube,and a lowish BB.
All these add up to a well behaved/no vices/pleasant/easy ride,bike that I can ride no hands on gravel roads and that behaves itself,that 'takes me home' along a 30cm wide tracks when I'm creamcrackered without me being concerned about it's handling too much.
I've tried a few touring bikes out for this multi role task,but every one had a vice that I had to keep an eye on.
The Vaya fills all the requirements,no surprises,no shocks,and totally predictable for an old phart who likes comfort and security.
Some would say boringly predictable,which after a while reveals itself as rock solid dependability,that's a bit like an old pair of slippers or a favourite armchair,with that oh that's,nice sort of feeling
If the Vaya were a woman it would be a wife who I can depend on,rather than a bit of fluff that I didn't know what she was going to do next!

PS, sorry to any ladies for the analogy but I s'pose it works both ways

[reohn2]

Black Mountain Cycles has a nice monster cross frame

Monster cross, is that the latest thing? SOMA have one as well:
http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/wolverine

A quick glance says crazy steep seat tube angles.

[Trail Beater]

Anything other than 1X ,is for the weak.

Did I ever claim strength?
Anything less than 3x8 is for the stoopid n strong

I'm at least one of those

[Trail Beater]

Taiwan probably. At least, Salsa are part of the QBP group along with Surly and a few others and I know Surly frames are made in Taiwan, so seems likely Salsa are too.

Definitely,it says as much on them.
90%+ of OTP frames are,and have been for some time.The Taiwanese know their stuff IMO where frame fabrication is,so I don't have a problem with that.
That said though,I do wish more were made to the same high standard in Europe,I wouldn't mind say a 20% extra on cost.

Agreed,It would be nice to see a homegrown steel frame .
It would put paid to the pedantic argument of "yeah,but they are all made in Taiwan y'know"

[Bmblbzzz]

I can't remember now where I read this (probably several places, and one of them might well have been this forum) but it's strongly suggested that Taiwan is beginning to lose out: not as cheap as China (which itself is in danger of being undercut by SE Asia or even India) and without the cachet of a European (or American) frame. That said, I think frames made in Europe will remain mostly a speciality; I suspect that to make them to Taiwanese quality and quantity would incur more than a 20% margin. Though of course there are mass manufacturers in Europe too:
https://youtu.be/OXoUkmfEASA
[youtube]OXoUkmfEASA[/youtube]
but the scale is not Far Eastern even if the quality is.

[reohn2]

I think frames made in Europe will remain mostly a speciality; I suspect that to make them to Taiwanese quality and quantity would incur more than a 20% margin.

I agree,and there's not a lot we can do about it unless the whole process was automated,with very minimal human intervention,and even then.....

[MikeDee]

Black Mountain Cycles has a nice monster cross frame

Monster cross, is that the latest thing? SOMA have one as well:
http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/wolverine

A quick glance says crazy steep seat tube angles.

Why is 73.5 degrees crazy steep?

[PH]

Monster cross, is that the latest thing? SOMA have one as well:
http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/wolverine

A quick glance says crazy steep seat tube angles.

Why is 73.5 degrees crazy steep?

For some people it means they can't move a saddle back far enough for a good position, for most of those it can be overcome by using a lay back seatpost, for those using a Brooks that has limited movement even a laid back seatpost might not be enough, though there's plenty of Brooks like choice.
I think for the majority of people it simply isn't a problem, otherwise we'd hear a lot more about it.
Thing is - there doesn't appear to be any reason other than fashion for it to be that steep, so even if the disadvantages are only to a small number of people, they don't have to be there for anyone.

[reohn2]

Monster cross, is that the latest thing? SOMA have one as well:
http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/wolverine

A quick glance says crazy steep seat tube angles.

Why is 73.5 degrees crazy steep?

PH,nailed it.
Plus to prove it,if you look at most of these type of bikes,between seatube and rear tyre there's nearly always enough room for the seatube angle to be relaxed by at least another 1degree.
The crazy steep angle is more akin to racing ie;head down backside up riding position,and bears no resemblance to a more relaxed touring or of piste type riding that the true 'gravel' bikes are designed for.

[bisikletci]

Update for anyone that's interested - I live in Euroland but am paid in pounds - so sadly the Vaya (which is way more expensive here than the other two) is definitely out...

It turns out that I may be able to get my hands on a reasonably-priced Vaya frame. Does anyone have an idea how much it would cost to kit one out? I realise that's a bit like asking how long's a piece of string, but let's say for components similar to the level on the complete build. reohn would it be rude to ask how much you spend building yours up? I'd need a mechanic/bike shop to help put it together, so that'd also need to be factored into the cost.

[reohn2]

Update for anyone that's interested - I live in Euroland but am paid in pounds - so sadly the Vaya (which is way more expensive here than the other two) is definitely out...

It turns out that I may be able to get my hands on a reasonably-priced Vaya frame. Does anyone have an idea how much it would cost to kit one out? I realise that's a bit like asking how long's a piece of string, but let's say for components similar to the level on the complete build. reohn would it be rude to ask how much you spend building yours up? I'd need a mechanic/bike shop to help put it together, so that'd also need to be factored into the cost.

Well it depends as to how long you want the string to be,but a reasonable and durable build with a decent pair of wheels would be around:- £650 (possibly a little less if you shop around) on top of the cost of the frameset,for that you'd get Deore/Tiagra level kit,BB7 brakes,STI's and hand built wheels,plus labour to build it.
Add £30 for mudguards and a bottle cage.