Gravel Bike

Trips, adventures, bikes, equipment, etc.
slowster
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by slowster »

pete75 wrote:Whether or not a bike is too heavy to lift or carry depends on the rider not the bike. I've seen my son lift the TX400 compete with full camping load over a 5 bar gate without any apparent effort.

I qualified my statement from the start:
slowster wrote:I think for me off road bikes fall into two categories: light enough for me to lift over a gate or fence or shoulder carry across some obstacles vs those that are too heavy for that. If a bike is too heavy to lift over an obstacle, that will inevitably influence the choice of route and terrain.

In contrast you made a fairly sweeping assertion with the implication that it was true for the great majority of riders:
pete75 wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Comparing those RSF photos with the TdF one above, there's a huge difference in terrain.

Yes there's a difference between rough stuff touring and top level road racing. Before gravel bikes per se were invented.My point is you don't need them to go on the sort of unmade roads cycle tourists might use. An ordinary touring bike is quite sufficient. A European style trekking bike will also serve the same purpose. My son has a VSF TX400 Rohloff. I'd back that against most gravel bikes on the rough stuff.

And now we've moved on to:
pete75 wrote:Whether or not a bike is too heavy to lift or carry depends on the rider not the bike.

What a disingenuous argument. Clearly it depends upon both the rider and the bike: how much the rider can comfortably lift and whether a particular bike falls within that weight limit.
pete75 wrote:I've seen my son lift the TX400 compete with full camping load over a 5 bar gate without any apparent effort.

Bully for him. Now take a look at the wide range of people in the RSF archive photographs, many of them much older than your son, and, I imagine, many of them nowhere near as strong as he is. Arguing that people would be better off with a heavy European trekking bike instead of a lightweight gravel bike for rough stuff riding, simply because your fit young son finds them OK, is absurd.

The lighter a bike, the more people who will be able lift it (and the easier it will be to ride uphill and to walk and push up a slope). If a light gravel bike allows the many people who are not as strong as your son to be able still to ride adventurous off-road routes, I think that is more than good enough reason to welcome the fact that people can buy such bikes.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Whether a given rider can lift a particular bike over a certain obstacle clearly depends on all three factors: the rider (strength, fitness, flexibility, non-disabledness); the bike (weight, size, shape); the obstacle (height, length, width, shape and size of any gap that has to be passed through, firmness of terrain).
pete75
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by pete75 »

slowster wrote:
pete75 wrote:Whether or not a bike is too heavy to lift or carry depends on the rider not the bike. I've seen my son lift the TX400 compete with full camping load over a 5 bar gate without any apparent effort.

I qualified my statement from the start:
slowster wrote:I think for me off road bikes fall into two categories: light enough for me to lift over a gate or fence or shoulder carry across some obstacles vs those that are too heavy for that. If a bike is too heavy to lift over an obstacle, that will inevitably influence the choice of route and terrain.

In contrast you made a fairly sweeping assertion with the implication that it was true for the great majority of riders:
pete75 wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Comparing those RSF photos with the TdF one above, there's a huge difference in terrain.

Yes there's a difference between rough stuff touring and top level road racing. Before gravel bikes per se were invented.My point is you don't need them to go on the sort of unmade roads cycle tourists might use. An ordinary touring bike is quite sufficient. A European style trekking bike will also serve the same purpose. My son has a VSF TX400 Rohloff. I'd back that against most gravel bikes on the rough stuff.

And now we've moved on to:
pete75 wrote:Whether or not a bike is too heavy to lift or carry depends on the rider not the bike.

What a disingenuous argument. Clearly it depends upon both the rider and the bike: how much the rider can comfortably lift and whether a particular bike falls within that weight limit.
pete75 wrote:I've seen my son lift the TX400 compete with full camping load over a 5 bar gate without any apparent effort.

Bully for him. Now take a look at the wide range of people in the RSF archive photographs, many of them much older than your son, and, I imagine, many of them nowhere near as strong as he is. Arguing that people would be better off with a heavy European trekking bike instead of a lightweight gravel bike for rough stuff riding, simply because your fit young son finds them OK, is absurd.

The lighter a bike, the more people who will be able lift it (and the easier it will be to ride uphill and to walk and push up a slope). If a light gravel bike allows the many people who are not as strong as your son to be able still to ride adventurous off-road routes, I think that is more than good enough reason to welcome the fact that people can buy such bikes.


It's not you who has the TX400 it's my son and what I wrote applies to him not you. You were describing what applies to yourself. Either is equally valid or invalid.
Of course whether or not a particular bike is too heavy to carry or lift depends on the rider. He is either able to lift and carry it or he is not.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
slowster
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by slowster »

pete75 wrote:My point is you don't need them to go on the sort of unmade roads cycle tourists might use. An ordinary touring bike is quite sufficient. A European style trekking bike will also serve the same purpose. My son has a VSF TX400 Rohloff. I'd back that against most gravel bikes on the rough stuff.

pete75 wrote:It's not you who has the TX400 it's my son and what I wrote applies to him not you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies - Motte-and-bailey fallacy:
The arguer first states the controversial position, but when challenged, states that they are advancing the modest position
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CJ
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by CJ »

Philip Benstead wrote:Is gravel bike just another name for a rough stuff bike?

Yes.

However: because 'Gravel bikes' are being sold to roadies, they weigh much less.

Rough-stuff bike, on the other hand, is a variety of touring bike. And do you know what happens when the Company bike designer is told that today he's speccing a tourer? He leans back in his chair, loosens his belt one hole and lets out a deep breath. Pheeuw! Then he slaps shut the little notebook on his desk that tells him the weight of every single part of a bicycle and tosses it out of the window, before getting on with the job. Should be able to knock off early today! Or so it seems.

Here's my 'fast' bike: a lighter replacement - with disc brakes - for my old Thorn Audax.
Mysteron
Mysteron
It's built on a gravel bike frame equipped with road wheels. That was the only way I could get a really light (carbon frame) clubrun bike to which I could fit mudguards without suffering the annoyance of toe overlap. It does the lightweight on-road day-ride job really well.

Then I noticed that this frame - and fork too - has all the bosses you could possibly want for carriers and bottles. And I had a tour coming up that would be all road, mostly centre-based with four days moving on. Here's a picture of it fully equipped on my pre-tour test ride.
Mysteron in touring mode
Mysteron in touring mode
Carbon frame and Fulcrum Racing-5 wheels on tour, why not? Those bags don't add any more load to the bike than the difference between my bodyweight and the average bloke who might ride a bike of this size (I have thin bones and long legs for my height).

There's so much clearance in this frame and fork however (I had to extend the brackets on these guards else they looked ridiculous) I'm thinking I might get another pair of wider wheels and tyres (and guards) and actually use it as a gravel bike! And do I really also need a 'proper' touring bike?
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
pete75
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by pete75 »

slowster wrote:
pete75 wrote:My point is you don't need them to go on the sort of unmade roads cycle tourists might use. An ordinary touring bike is quite sufficient. A European style trekking bike will also serve the same purpose. My son has a VSF TX400 Rohloff. I'd back that against most gravel bikes on the rough stuff.

pete75 wrote:It's not you who has the TX400 it's my son and what I wrote applies to him not you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies - Motte-and-bailey fallacy:
The arguer first states the controversial position, but when challenged, states that they are advancing the modest position


It's ludicrous you have to search Wikipedia to respond to a post. Still if that's what floats your boat carry on.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by SA_SA_SA »

CJ wrote:...[image 20200410O001.JPG /image] ...

Is that an SQR bracket modified for "up & out removal" and "down & in attachment" I see?
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CJ
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by CJ »

SA_SA_SA wrote:
CJ wrote:...[image 20200410O001.JPG /image] ...

Is that an SQR bracket modified for "up & out removal" and "down & in attachment" I see?

No it's a Rixen & Kaul Contour Max adapter which comes with the VauDe Offroad M seatbag shown in this other picture below. This attachment is a much neater and lighter design than Carradice SQR; and better because, as you say, the bag removes up & out, avoiding conflict with and not requiring so much clearance from the wheel immediately below.
20201207p001.JPG

These most convenient and useful VauDe bags have unfortunately never been widely sold in UK and seem to be even more difficult and expensive to obtain since Brexit. (I see that VauDe's product pages now carry a note that there is no online supply to this country.) But maybe Northern Ireland still has free access to the EU retail market via Eire?
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Bikester looks to have a decent selection of VauDe bags.
https://www.bikester.co.uk/accessories/bike-bags.html
It's a German firm, despite the .uk address, but (AIUI) is managing to avoid distribution problems by maintaining a separate UK warehouse. I've never used them myself but have heard decent reports.
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by SA_SA_SA »

NB I just sawed off the lower bit of an Sqr and replaced it with bit of metal to allow down&in attachment with bag resting on pannier rack (I see the vaude bracket only takes 3kg :( ). I am not sure my hacked bracket is made well / accurate enough for use without such rack support as on a folder...

cj wrote: ...I see that VauDe's product pages now carry a note that there is no online supply to this country.) But maybe Northern Ireland still has free access to the EU retail market via Eire?


Well, out of curiosity, I tried entering a rose versand account with Ireland as country and it rejected it due to my address being in Northern Ireland...I presume a separate NI entry is required in country drop down lists, which would require paid for software modification, so I presume NI will be treated same as the rest of UK :
I presume the bigger EU based mail order suppliers will reinstate UK mail order when they have to update their systems to cope with the related/similar new intra eu vat rules .. I wonder if the smaller ones will set up ebay/amazon portals and let them do that work, or just have a 135pound minimum order. I don,t see why, for the time being, they wouldn't just have a 135pound minimum order, though.

I suspect I could order stuff by post from the South/the Republic itself, but might have to use a telephone order and anyway I don't think they have any equivalent shops with the wide range of Rose etc.

Bmblbzzzz: That bikester link seems a useful source of stvzo lamps at uk postage rates (always the achilles heel of ordering small orders from other European countries...) .

Eire: that inspired me to look up what is the preferred official name by its government is now :) :---
it seems to be Republic of Ireland or just Ireland , ⁹(though most/some Unionists prefer to shorten it to just " the Republic" or " the South" or the Irish Republic; I am not sure the Republic of Ireland is that keen on Eire being used now, and I've never heard anyone in Northern Ireland call it that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_o ... rish_state

I think the bbc rules in the media section of above link look fair to me .
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by Bmblbzzz »

SA_SA_SA wrote:Bmblbzzzz: That bikester link seems a useful source of stvzo lamps at uk postage rates (always the achilles heel of ordering small orders from other European countries...) .

Glad it's useful to you. :D

Shame about Rose not recognizing N. Ireland address. I guess, at least at the moment, it's just not worth their while when they have orders from the whole of the rest of Europe. Could you order to poste restante in the Republic and collect from there?
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Not at the minute, the north south border is essentially closed due to the current pox, plus there would be the travel costs so perhaps only worth it for big things which would presumably pass the 135 limit allowing recipient to deal with local vat/ customs charges.

Stzvo approved Lights are mainly what I ordered from mainland Europe.

I expect it makes commercial sense to update software for the coming new intra- EU and current new Uk vat etc rules at same time given that they are related.
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CJ
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by CJ »

Bmblbzzz wrote:Bikester looks to have a decent selection of VauDe bags.
https://www.bikester.co.uk/accessories/bike-bags.html
It's a German firm, despite the .uk address, but (AIUI) is managing to avoid distribution problems by maintaining a separate UK warehouse. I've never used them myself but have heard decent reports.

Thanks, that looks a good way to get those practical Continental items that we used to buy from the likes of Bike24 (who now have "Product not shippable" all over their UK-facing website!). And Bikester DO sell the Vaude Off Road Bag M. Even the price, at £90 versus 90€ (at Bike24.de - but only thanks to a temporary 10% discount) is not too shabby, especially since you only have to spend another £9 to get it post free. (Or £14, since there will be £5 off your first order if you sign up for email promotions!)
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by Bmblbzzz »

CJ wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Bikester looks to have a decent selection of VauDe bags.
https://www.bikester.co.uk/accessories/bike-bags.html
It's a German firm, despite the .uk address, but (AIUI) is managing to avoid distribution problems by maintaining a separate UK warehouse. I've never used them myself but have heard decent reports.

Thanks, that looks a good way to get those practical Continental items that we used to buy from the likes of Bike24 (who now have "Product not shippable" all over their UK-facing website!). And Bikester DO sell the Vaude Off Road Bag M. Even the price, at £90 versus 90€ (at Bike24.de - but only thanks to a temporary 10% discount) is not too shabby, especially since you only have to spend another £9 to get it post free. (Or £14, since there will be £5 off your first order if you sign up for email promotions!)

Out of curiousity, what makes you rate Vaude so highly? Especially as they've never really been widely available in UK. I don't even know anyone who's got any of it, to my memory. But I do remember a pannier test in, I think, Cycling Plus magazine something like 20 or 21 years ago, in which they mentioned Vaude as being regarded in much of Europe on as high a level as Ortlieb, possibly even better.
Enigmadick
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Re: Gravel Bike

Post by Enigmadick »

I see the gravel bike as almost the perfect bike for these times. Most cyclists want to get away from busier roads to our potholed and mud strewn back roads, towpaths and tracks and the gravel bike perfectly fills that need.

Since buying one with a 1x11 crankset a few months back, my handmade audax bike has hung in the garage and will propably only come out when I need a bit more top end speed to keep up with our club chain gang. As it's has strengthened chain stays and rack lugs I may well use it for short lightweight tours too once lockdown is eased.

Here it is a On One Space Chicken crossing a bwlch in the Clwydian Range.

PSX_20201219_134521.jpg
ENIGMA DICK aka Richard Barrett
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