Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

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tempsperdu
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby tempsperdu » 6 Feb 2015, 1:43pm

I don't know if this is true as I never bothered to verify it but was told off by little old lady for preparing to ride off on my MB in a pedestrian area.
Apparently in Germany anyone who commits a traffic offense on a bike and has a driving license for a car lost points on the license.
Seems like a very sensible idea and no I don't know what happens if you don't have a license.
Perhaps better not to ask.

Bicycler
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby Bicycler » 5 Mar 2015, 2:29pm

Let's work on prosecuting the dangerous offences of motor vehicle drivers and once we have completely eradicated dangerous driving from the roads we can attend to matters like nuisance cycling :roll:

BTW, cycling is permitted in many "pedestrian" areas. If cycling is prohibited there should be a no cycling sign or no vehicle sign (red circle with nothing inside). Cycling is perfectly legal in pedestrian zones where there is only a "no motor vehicles" sign (motorbike above a car inside a red circle)

reohn2
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby reohn2 » 6 Mar 2015, 4:28pm

Bicycler wrote:Let's work on prosecuting the dangerous offences of motor vehicle drivers and once we have completely eradicated dangerous driving from the roads we can attend to matters like nuisance cycling :roll:

Let's tackle everyone who breaks the law whatever they're doing,but the dangerous one's need to have heftier penalties imposed upon them.

BTW, cycling is permitted in many "pedestrian" areas. If cycling is prohibited there should be a no cycling sign or no vehicle sign (red circle with nothing inside). Cycling is perfectly legal in pedestrian zones where there is only a "no motor vehicles" sign (motorbike above a car inside a red circle)

But not many people know that,and in the case of tempsperdu's encounter with the lady I have some sympathy with her.Being small and old she'll more than likely feel vulnerable and UK society being what it is,she's more than likely experienced the yob on a bike riding far too quickly through crowds,so needed to make her feelings known.
FWIW last summer Mrs R2 and I were on the tandem on Morecambe prom(wide shared use)we'd ridden up from Glasson Dock,unbeknown to us there was some kind of 'do' on and it was packed with people dressed up in various forties and fifties clothes.
We rode slowly and considerately through the crowds,and stopped at a vacant bench to take in the spectacle,we were amazed at the number of cyclists of all ages carving their way through the crowds in what I would consider a dangerous fashion.
So I can see a little old lady's point,it's the few idiots(once again)who spoil it for the rest.
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Bicycler
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby Bicycler » 6 Mar 2015, 9:28pm

In a world of sufficient resources then yes, all laws should be enforced if there is a public interest in them being enforced. All I was suggesting was that limited resources should be allocated towards the most serious breaches of law. When inconsiderate, reckless and aggressive driving routinely goes unpunished it is disproportionate to put resources into prosecuting minor cycling misdemeanours.

Whilst accepting what you say about the old lady, my sympathy is limited. Quite simply this is an example of how cyclists are singled out and treated differently. Every Tom, Dick and Granny feels entitled to lecture cyclists about what they ought to be doing, usually (as here) from a position of complete ignorance. UK road conditions being what they are she will have experienced genuinely dangerous driving behaviour but I can guarantee that she would not feel the need to educate a car driver she anticipated was going to misbehave. It is socially acceptable to do so to a cyclist. Bad drivers are seen as individual bad apples, bad cycling is evidence of the failings of all cyclists.

reohn2
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby reohn2 » 8 Mar 2015, 4:19pm

Bicycler wrote:In a world of sufficient resources then yes, all laws should be enforced if there is a public interest in them being enforced. All I was suggesting was that limited resources should be allocated towards the most serious breaches of law. When inconsiderate, reckless and aggressive driving routinely goes unpunished it is disproportionate to put resources into prosecuting minor cycling misdemeanours.

Generally I agree.

Whilst accepting what you say about the old lady, my sympathy is limited. Quite simply this is an example of how cyclists are singled out and treated differently. Every Tom, Dick and Granny feels entitled to lecture cyclists about what they ought to be doing, usually (as here) from a position of complete ignorance. UK road conditions being what they are she will have experienced genuinely dangerous driving behaviour but I can guarantee that she would not feel the need to educate a car driver she anticipated was going to misbehave. It is socially acceptable to do so to a cyclist. Bad drivers are seen as individual bad apples, bad cycling is evidence of the failings of all cyclists.

I don't get everyone or anyone lecturing me on my riding behaviour.Unless I've been skimmed past and catch them up at the next TL and have a word,they usually claim I should get out of their way effectively,to which I usually explain,somewhat forthright,as to why I won't be.
IME little old ladies get some leeway from drivers,I've even experienced drivers stopping to let old folks cross the road in heavy traffic situations.
I've also witnessed idiots on bikes skimming past people old and very young in pedestrian areas(I'm in no claiming the OP was doing any such thing though)and as a result can leave a lasting impression on the mind.
Mrs R2 an myself have even,when walking on footway in a local town centre, been ridden at expecting us to jump out of the way by some yob on an MTB,he got a bit of a shock at my reaction,and I received a nods and words of agreement by other people walking on the same path when I told him where to go.
The difference between the UK and European cities and towns with pedestrian areas where cycling is allowed is like chalk and cheese IME,in that on the continent cyclists tend to be considerate and slow.
Here all to often they see it as an opportunity to practice their speed slalom skills,fag in gob,usually riding poorly maintained MTB's with one or no brakes and a red rusty chain.
It's one of a number of social problems we seem to effectively foster in this country due a total lack of responsibility by some,who seem to see their roll in life as trying to upset as many people as possible and a lack of an effective policing to put a lid on it.

Sorry for the delay in replying I'd missed your post.
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Bicycler
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby Bicycler » 9 Mar 2015, 7:18pm

reohn2 wrote:Sorry for the delay in replying I'd missed your post.

and I missed your reply. It's easy to miss posts on this section of the forum.

I don't disagree about the poor behaviour of many cyclists around pedestrians, though I will point out that the other major difference is the way in which cyclists in this country are generally expected to share busy, narrow and most importantly, unsegregated routes with pedestrians in a way which wouldn't be normal in other countries. To an extent we expect our urban cyclists to show common sense and restraint to avoid conflict where other countries would design out the conflict to begin with.

I don't get much grief either. I've had the occasional altercation with drivers who didn't understand that "no motor vehicles" and "except cycles" plates allowed me to use a route they couldn't. I've heard very occasional comments whilst using towpaths and bridleways from walkers convinced that bicycles weren't allowed. Even then it's been an overheard comment rather than anybody directly challenging me. On the other hand I am conscious that my experiences may not be typical. The treatment and perceptions of you and I may differ from that of many urban cyclists due to our age. The young are assumed to be up to no good and are tarred with the same brush regardless of what they do.

reohn2
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby reohn2 » 9 Mar 2015, 8:03pm

Bicycler wrote:I don't disagree about the poor behaviour of many cyclists around pedestrians, though I will point out that the other major difference is the way in which cyclists in this country are generally expected to share busy, narrow and most importantly, unsegregated routes with pedestrians in a way which wouldn't be normal in other countries. To an extent we expect our urban cyclists to show common sense and restraint to avoid conflict where other countries would design out the conflict to begin with.

I don't know about that,in towns and city centres in France,Italy,NL and Spain cyclists and pedestrians do quite well mixing together especially in Italy(Tuscany) where streets are quite narrow.
Equally so drivers treat cyclists with greater respect in those countries.

......... The young are assumed to be up to no good and are tarred with the same brush regardless of what they do.


Not by me,I try to have respect for anyone I meet from the very young to the very old,it's only when they don't respect me or their environment I have something to say.
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mrjemm
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby mrjemm » 10 Mar 2015, 11:00am

Bicycler wrote:I've heard very occasional comments whilst using towpaths and bridleways from walkers convinced that bicycles weren't allowed. Even then it's been an overheard comment rather than anybody directly challenging me.


I've noticed these are often commented in a rather loud way, kinda passive-aggressive, not wanting to challenge, but wanting you to hear way. In a very similar way to "Ooh, they don't ever have bells any more, do they Deirdre?". Very popular style of comment on the Lune path and canalside between Lanc and Hest Bank... I fitted a bell some time ago purely to counter this effect even though I prefer to use my voice and so now use both, even though I actually think the bell less polite/pleasant.

...BTW, cycling is permitted in many "pedestrian" areas. If cycling is prohibited there should be a no cycling sign or no vehicle sign (red circle with nothing inside). Cycling is perfectly legal in pedestrian zones where there is only a "no motor vehicles" sign (motorbike above a car inside a red circle)


Interestingly, this was on my mind yesterday in Lancaster. The section of Penny Street between the Penny Bank and Radio Shack, has long been OK to cycle on, and has the blue signs- https://goo.gl/maps/217f7 whilst onwards into town was until recently bearing no cycling signs. Now it's time limited at 10am to 5pm IIRC, which interested me, though I am pretty sure it used to be OK to cycle through town. Guess it changes with the mood of the people and by extension, the council.

reohn2 wrote:...FWIW last summer Mrs R2 and I were on the tandem on Morecambe prom(wide shared use)we'd ridden up from Glasson Dock,unbeknown to us there was some kind of 'do' on and it was packed with people dressed up in various forties and fifties clothes.
We rode slowly and considerately through the crowds,and stopped at a vacant bench to take in the spectacle,we were amazed at the number of cyclists of all ages carving their way through the crowds in what I would consider a dangerous fashion.
So I can see a little old lady's point,it's the few idiots(once again)who spoil it for the rest.


Normal on Morecambe Prom. As you know, I use it regularly, and am very wary of other users, but often observe many other riders using pedestrians as if cones on a slalom course, or just swooshing on by them. Yes, some are of the squeaky sprung thing with a scowl on board, but just as many are lyclad roadoids. It's all about not having any consideration for others. Tis though the same on the roads there; indicators, lane discipline and patience at junctions do not exist in the few square miles, centered about the nexus of this- Torrisholme carvery roundabout. :evil:

Bicycler
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby Bicycler » 10 Mar 2015, 3:33pm

mrjemm wrote:
Bicycler wrote:I've heard very occasional comments whilst using towpaths and bridleways from walkers convinced that bicycles weren't allowed. Even then it's been an overheard comment rather than anybody directly challenging me.


I've noticed these are often commented in a rather loud way, kinda passive-aggressive, not wanting to challenge, but wanting you to hear way. In a very similar way to "Ooh, they don't ever have bells any more, do they Deirdre?". Very popular style of comment on the Lune path and canalside between Lanc and Hest Bank... I fitted a bell some time ago purely to counter this effect even though I prefer to use my voice and so now use both, even though I actually think the bell less polite/pleasant.

Yes, I nearly described it as a stage whisper.

I suspect walkers who don't cycle or ride horses pay very little attention to access for these users. Every path is to their mind a footpath.

You can't win with bells. Half the grumps in the population object to cyclists calling out to them, they expect cyclists to have bells and use them, the remainder of the grumps consider use of bells to be a rude "get outta my way" even when rung in good time by a slowing cyclist, they would prefer cyclists to speak to them. I've given up worrying.

JohnMcL7
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby JohnMcL7 » 3 Apr 2015, 6:59pm

I've never seen any MTB groups that ride on the pavement up here, certainly none of the groups I've been out with do that and can't see why they would.

John

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mjr
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby mjr » 3 Apr 2015, 8:52pm

I seem to be winning with bells: a single loud brringg before I'm close enough to make them jump seems to wwork almost every time. :)

But then, there's lots of bikes around West Norfolk.
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Sooper8
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby Sooper8 » 19 Apr 2015, 8:32pm

I've seen that too, quite a lot- and really have no idea...It seems to take anti-social dicking about to new levels
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tempsperdu
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby tempsperdu » 8 May 2015, 8:49am

Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

This seems to work both ways.
I apparently startled a 'lady' pedestrian yesterday after cycling towards her for some distance wearing hiviz.
She seemed oblivious to the fact the she was walking on a cycle path and took umbridge that I was there
almost stationary so tried to shove me off as she walked past.
There would have been plenty of room if she and her partner had walked in file but abreast just no room and giving way to
an almost stationary bike seemed too much.
She wasn't even very burly.

Hey ho.

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mjr
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby mjr » 8 May 2015, 9:14am

tempsperdu wrote:She seemed oblivious to the fact the she was walking on a cycle path and took umbridge that I was there almost stationary so tried to shove me off as she walked past.

She shouldn't do that (I'd be tempted to report the assault to help get split cycleway/footways) but did you ring a bell or say hello? And I'm increasingly of the opinion that hi-viz helps dehumanise us so people feel they can hit us like they might a vehicle that mounted a path :(
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Re: Burly blokes on the pavement - why?

Postby MikeF » 8 Aug 2015, 4:21pm

Cunobelin wrote:Because many of these are the same ones who will expect you to cycle on the pavement when they are in their cars.

There is a significant minority who expect this to be that case, and when they get on a bike carry it out
I think you may be right. I've noticed many fast/close passes by those who have off-road bikes on/in their cars. It's always surprised me because I think it is these drivers, at least, who should know better. They seem to be part of the "cycles are for off road use only" brigade.
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