How should I vote in the AGM

Discussion of the re-branding of CTC as Cycling UK.
Iand
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How should I vote in the AGM

Postby Iand » 22 Apr 2016, 5:54pm

I shant be at the AGM but wish to show my irritation with the management.
Suggestions on a postcard please!

Iand
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby Iand » 22 Apr 2016, 6:01pm

Or even WHY should I vote if you wish to make positive suggestion!

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Velocio
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby Velocio » 22 Apr 2016, 6:40pm

Iand wrote:I shant be at the AGM but wish to show my irritation with the management.
Suggestions on a postcard please!


Philip Benstead wrote:WHAT CAN YOU DO?

Go to AGM 2016 If you are unable to go your voting paper is on the back of the address label of the Cycle magazine.
You can appoint me as your proxy.
REMEMBER DO NOT LEAVE BOX 2b blank that will be giving your vote to the chair.
MY NAME IS PHILIP BENSTEAD

IF YOU VOTE BY POST

Vote NO for the following motions 1, 2, 3, 5 This will fire a shoot across the blow of the CTC council

Vote YES for motions 4, 6,7,8,9,10,11,12 These motions aim is to increase accountability

Vote as you please for motions 13 to 17
...ever cycle ...ever CTC

JohnW
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby JohnW » 23 Apr 2016, 10:17pm

It is crucial that we vote - that we do NOT vest our votes in the chair, that if we give the chair our proxy vote, we till him how to vote. Far better if we cast our vote personally - we can do it on-line or by using the voting paper that we received with the latest "Cycle".

My belief is that motion 5 is the most crucial of the motions.

PH
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby PH » 23 Apr 2016, 10:45pm

JohnW wrote: Far better if we cast our vote personally - we can do it on-line or by using the voting paper that we received with the latest "Cycle".

The only way to cast your vote personally is to go to the AGM.
Both the form received with Cycle and the online option are to appoint and instruct a proxy.

PH
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby PH » 23 Apr 2016, 10:57pm

Iand wrote:I shant be at the AGM but wish to show my irritation with the management.
Suggestions on a postcard please!

There is no motion showing irritation with the management, I's sure if Phillip could have found a way to insert one he would have. Better to vote for the motions we have as you see fit, though IMO the majority of those who vote will again put their trust in council and give the chair discretion. I think the best way to show that irritation is to give Phillip your proxy, management should see that each vote he has is a dissatisfied member, though how many he'd need before being a concern to them is anyone's guess, I doubt a couple of dozen will hold much sway.

JohnW
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby JohnW » 23 Apr 2016, 11:26pm

PH wrote:
JohnW wrote: Far better if we cast our vote personally - we can do it on-line or by using the voting paper that we received with the latest "Cycle".

The only way to cast your vote personally is to go to the AGM.
Both the form received with Cycle and the online option are to appoint and instruct a proxy.


PH - I've only been to one AGM, and was disappointed with the way that the chair used his proxy to vote overwhelmingly against the wishes expressed by those members who : (a) had attended the AGM and (b) who had instructed him how to vote. As far a I'm aware though, the expressed vote of those members who had returned their papers and (bothered to) express their wishes were counted.

I concede that my use of the term "personally" was incorrect in the above instance, but the essence of what I was saying was, and is, that it's absolutely crucial that we do express our vote, and that we DO NOT give proxy to the chair.

It may be that every voter votes the way that the chair wishes, and if they do, then that's democracy and there can be no complaint. I think that we agree that all members should actually cast their vote.

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gaz
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby gaz » 23 Apr 2016, 11:48pm

JohnW wrote:... PH - I've only been to one AGM, and was disappointed with the way that the chair used his proxy to vote overwhelmingly against the wishes expressed by those members who : (a) had attended the AGM and (b) who had instructed him how to vote. ....

John, you've made that comment before in relation the the Shefield AGM. The figures from ERS present quite a different picture to the one you recall: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=92645&p=854091&#p854091

I share your desire to encourage every member to vote and to cast their vote in accordance with their own wishes. If a member's own wish is to give an undirected proxy vote to the Chair then that is their choice and it is no less valid than any other voting choice. If a member chooses not to vote that too is a valid choice.
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JohnW
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby JohnW » 24 Apr 2016, 12:01am

gaz wrote:
JohnW wrote:... PH - I've only been to one AGM, and was disappointed with the way that the chair used his proxy to vote overwhelmingly against the wishes expressed by those members who : (a) had attended the AGM and (b) who had instructed him how to vote. ....

John, you've made that comment before in relation the the Shefield AGM. The figures from ERS present quite a different picture to the one you recall: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=92645&p=854091&#p854091

I share your desire to encourage every member to vote and to cast their vote in accordance with their own wishes. If a member's own wish is to give an undirected proxy vote to the Chair then that is their choice and it is no less valid than any other voting choice. If a member chooses not to vote that too is a valid choice.


Gaz - I know, but it is perfectly constitutional and legal for members' votes which have been vested in the chair to be counted as 'their' vote. This is customary and normal and not unique to the erstwhile CTC. That's what happens. We've both referred to this phenomenon, and this is indeed how votes are recorded - there's no suggestion of malpractice or skulduggery - I don't want to be misunderstood - but this is what makes it so crucial for each member to express his preference.

It is obvious how the chair will use proxy votes from Council's comments on the motions schedule, and on some of the motions I'm (personally - not speaking for anyone else) comfortable with how the chair will vote...............but motion 5 is not one of them.

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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby PH » 24 Apr 2016, 12:45am

JohnW wrote:but this is what makes it so crucial for each member to express his preference.


And if that preference is to have the council make the decision?
To me that seems a perfectly valid option and entirely democratic.
that it's absolutely crucial that we do express our vote, and that we DO NOT give proxy to the chair.

I think you're mixing the terms up here and making it confusing. If you're not going to be at the AGM the only way to vote is for a proxy to do it for you. Either as you direct or as they see fit, both the paper form and the online one are pretty clear about this.

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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby JohnW » 24 Apr 2016, 9:46am

PH wrote:
JohnW wrote:but this is what makes it so crucial for each member to express his preference.


And if that preference is to have the council make the decision?
To me that seems a perfectly valid option and entirely democratic.
that it's absolutely crucial that we do express our vote, and that we DO NOT give proxy to the chair.

I think you're mixing the terms up here and making it confusing. If you're not going to be at the AGM the only way to vote is for a proxy to do it for you. Either as you direct or as they see fit, both the paper form and the online one are pretty clear about this.


PH - that's actually what I'm saying - I may be misinterpreting what you're saying PH, but as far as I'm concerned, what I'm saying is what you've said in your post (quoted). I've said - if we wish to vote as Council wants us to vote then that's fine for us, that's democracy - I've said it above. I've said that it's crucial that, if we give proxy to the chair we tell him how to vote................your post suggests to me that you think that we're disagreeing here, but I'm not disagreeing. Is there something I'm missing?

I think we both agree on one thing, that it's crucial to vote ourselves, and not give the chair proxy to use our vote as he wishes.

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gaz
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby gaz » 24 Apr 2016, 10:19am

JohnW wrote:Gaz - I know, but it is perfectly constitutional and legal for members' votes which have been vested in the chair to be counted as 'their' vote. This is customary and normal and not unique to the erstwhile CTC. That's what happens. We've both referred to this phenomenon, and this is indeed how votes are recorded - there's no suggestion of malpractice or skulduggery - I don't want to be misunderstood - but this is what makes it so crucial for each member to express his preference.


JohnW wrote:... and not give the chair proxy to use our vote as he wishes.

Having agreed that it is constitutional and legal for a member to choose to give the chair their undirected proxy vote and that there is no suggestion of malpractice or skulduggery why go on to say that members shouldn't do it? It is the choice of the individual and it is every bit as valid a choice to make as every other voting option.


JohnW wrote:... I think we both agree on one thing, that it's crucial to vote ...
That's the bit we are all agreed on and we're all agreed that cycling is a wonderful thing.
Hand wash only. Do not iron.

JohnW
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby JohnW » 24 Apr 2016, 2:31pm

Oh heck - I wish I'd never got into this - especially as we're all agreed.

Going back to the beginnings of this thread, there was a question, and an inference that there was some benefit in showing "............irritation to the 'management" and "firing a shoot across the blow of CTC Council" (I think it meant ".............a shot across the bow.............." actually)

I suppose that I should have inserted a caveat at the beginning, along the lines of : "if you've thought about the motions, and if you disagree with how the chair will obviously vote............"; so, I'll amend what I've said to "Having carefully studied the motions and their evident and potential implications, if we find that we cannot agree with the results of how the chair will obviously vote, which would allow him use our (proxied) votes to support his view, in respect of any or all motions, then it is crucial that we vote to express our wishes by directing the chair on how to use our vote.

I'm amazed that wasn't clear before - am I such an argumentative wart that it was assumed that I was arguing, and just for the sake of it? I'm sorry about that.

Personally, I don't propose to vote against Council's expressed wishes just for the sake of it - I don't want to vote for the sake of being an irritation. I'm perfectly comfortable with some of Council's views on some of the motions.

There is however one motion which more than any other has, I believe, (again personally) the real potential to be destructive and divisive, and that is motion 5 - but that's the reason why I shall vote against it - not for the sake of making anyone's saddle uncomfortable.

Steady rider
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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby Steady rider » 26 Apr 2016, 7:19pm

Each person can send in their vote on each issue or perhaps have someone help if need be. Providing the option for a proxy with either the Chair or 'other', mean in practice that the Chair does not have to advertise there roll but any other proxy has to make themselves know. A division for the other proxies would naturally occur with cyclists who know their local representative or member who may attend the AGM, so that the Chair has a built in major advantage. It may be better just to ask people to vote on an issue and then you know there opinions, not that of the Chair or a division of other people.

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Re: How should I vote in the AGM

Postby Bmblbzzz » 26 Apr 2016, 7:53pm

I thought the issue previously was that votes uncast – people who had not filled in a form, voted online or attended – were given to the Chair to do what he wanted with (ie to vote as he wanted)? Not just the votes of people who had deliberately given their vote to the Chair. In practice, most people don't vote at such AGMs, particularly in a large organisation like CTC (as it was) so that would have been the bulk of votes.